258 replies to this topic

[alistaircg]

http://www.pinballne...ters/index.html

[vogliadicane]

boy could i go on for days with this one....

 I'll make it short....  VP will never, could never ever affect real machine sales.... we are nowhere close to reinvent enough in the real pinball world.... 

and i believe 100% this is the truth

^^ agree completely. I would even say, that it *can* be the other way round.

 

Speaking for myself, I never played the real Stern Star Trek machine, only the VP version. But, I am totally flashed by this table and really think about buying the real pinball table. Why? Because of the virtual version.

 

And I know a guy, who has several real machines and a small VPin Cab. He uses it mosly to test tables for some time and to see, if he likes them. Then probably buys one. So...

 

Edit: this doesn't mean, that I don't respect the reasons, why here it isn't wanted to interfere with tables still on sale... I see this as a kind of respect to the manufacturers (who's products or ideas are in a way copied by virtualization)  and that's ok.

Edited by vogliadicane, 06 September 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[xenonph]

I guess China thinks the same way. They see no reason not to add all your tables that are available here for free, to there Cabinets they are selling. Apparently this shouldn't bother you either if you see no reason to be bound to an agreement made with Stern, to not make any newer tables.

 

I don't have a Disneyland close to me, and really never could afford it, but what if I made a copy of Disneyland and let everyone in for free. Why should they be mad? My rides arent as good as the originals, so it isn't really taking away business from them. I am not charging for the rides.

 

Here's another example..

I like Rock music.

I like someones brand new album, but just cant seem to find a music store to buy said album.

So I just take it from somewhere else, and everything is ok. I might even buy it now that I have heard the songs.

Does this make it ok?

 

It was a deal that was made with Stern, to not make any of there new Pinball Tables. You can respect this deal, or not.

You can say it doesn't have any effect on people who are buying the actual Machines, or Stern's revenue, but that doesn't mean the deal wasn't made.

 

I guess it all comes down to whether you want to respect this deal or not.

I personally think it was great that Stern even offered the deal, and I personally think it should be respected on this site!!

What would you think if they made the deal personally with you?

Would you feel the same? Would you respect this deal? Or just do what you want, because you feel it will have no effect on Sterns business?

If this was your site, you would do the same damn thing Noah Fentz is trying to do, RESPECT THE DEAL MADE BY STERN. They are the only Pinball company left that is still in business.

 

Keep on Pinballin'

[hauntfreaks]

I dont know about you, but i dont make copies of real pinball machines in my garage...

 

I paint pretty pictures of real pinball machines for free and then a piece of software that is free animates it to "virtually" look like a real pinball machine and a physics engine that makes it "virtually" play like a real pinball machine.... but in the end it is not , can not and will never be a real pinball machine...

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, in this case its a Virtual pinball machine, not a duck in the least

 

also your music analogy doesn't work in this situation

it would be more like if you heard a song you liked and then you went to an open mic night at a local coffee shop and played your rendition of it...

Edited by hauntfreaks, 07 September 2016 - 02:41 AM.

[bodydump]

VP is the blow up doll of the pinball world. It can be any girl you want, but it sure ain't as good as the real thing.

Edited by bodydump, 07 September 2016 - 05:28 AM.

[Drybonz]

VP is the blow up doll of the pinball world. It can be any girl you want, but it sure ain't as good as the real thing.

 

...also in that it is cheaper to practice with.

[robertms]

VP is the blow up doll of the pinball world. It can be any girl you want, but it sure ain't as good as the real thing.

Thanks a lot BD, I will never look at my cab the same..

[xenonph]

Yes, perfect analogy.

The quality of the tables still has nothing to do with the deal made with Stern.

 

For instance,

 

Say Penthouse makes a deal with you to not recreate any newer Penthouse Models. Just because you are making Blow-Up Dolls of these Models, doesn't change the fact that this deal was made.

 

And if you were the one who they made the deal with, and this was your site, you would do the same as Noah Fentz, and try to honor that deal.

[bent98]

At the end of the day this is Noah's site and there is nothing you can do to change his mind. It's best to just move on. I agree that this is not MAME emulation where its a perfect or close to perfect player experience from the original but that's my personal opinion. People will debate back and forth about this till the cows come home. What I can't get my head around is how it's not ok to create SAM/spike tables but it's ok to create Pokemon tables that uses images and logo's that infringe upon Nintendo licenses for example(I am not picking on you JP)? Or for that matter, all table manufacturer artwork and roms i.e. Gotliebb, but thats just me and this isn't my site. But again, it's not my site, Noah has his reasons so respect and accept it. There are a number of other sites that offer you the freedom to have these discussion and give you access to these tables.  

 

Not trying to offend anyone. Just my own 2 cents.

[jpsalas]

So I guess this is no go

 

[attachment=24778:clipboard.jpg]

[bent98]

I personally don't have a problem with it.

[laylow]

So I guess this is no go
 
clipboard.jpg

Ready for takeoff, go!

Sent from mTalk

[hauntfreaks]

So I guess this is no go

 

clipboard.jpg

  

you old sumbitch....LOL

 

 

At the end of the day this is Noah's site and there is nothing you can do to change his mind. It's best to just move on. I agree that this is not MAME emulation where its a perfect or close to perfect player experience from the original but that's my personal opinion. People will debate back and forth about this till the cows come home. What I can't get my head around is how it's not ok to create SAM/spike tables but it's ok to create Pokemon tables that uses images and logo's that infringe upon Nintendo licenses for example(I am not picking on you JP)? Or for that matter, all table manufacturer artwork and roms i.e. Gotliebb, but thats just me and this isn't my site. But again, it's not my site, Noah has his reasons so respect and accept it. There are a number of other sites that offer you the freedom to have these discussion and give you access to these tables.  

 

Not trying to offend anyone. Just my own 2 cents.

 

nah you need to read back... this goes beyond the borders of VPF, but way out into the stratosphere.....

So you guys are 100% right ...

Example ---> if the rules are clearly stated that the only tables to be share on VPF were "bowling" themed tables , then that would be it.... bowling themed tables for everyone

so if the rules are NO modern stern, Jersey Jack, Dutch Pinball and the rest of the still in business micro pin machine builders.... then so be it...
here at VPF that's the law, the rule. decee, etiquette, ordinance, truism, thou shalt not share for free such tables here on VPF....

I dont think anyone here really has a problem with that, maybe i'm wrong, I know its fine with me...

i've uploaded like 150 unique files to VPF in 3ish years all legal under the guise of the current rules... so i'm far from a scofflaw in the VPF community.

oh but.... just that the rules dont spill over past these walls [vpforums.org]

[TNT2]

Well this has definitely been an interesting read. I can definitely see both sides.

[AaronShupp]

Xenomorph you ought to consider a career in professional shilling. There are political candidates that need your thoughtless devotion to agreements that you weren't a part of and may not even exist.

 

/ lol

[hauntfreaks]

Yes, perfect analogy.

The quality of the tables still has nothing to do with the deal made with Stern.

 

For instance,

 

Say Penthouse makes a deal with you to not recreate any newer Penthouse Models. Just because you are making Blow-Up Dolls of these Models, doesn't change the fact that this deal was made.

 

And if you were the one who they made the deal with, and this was your site, you would do the same as Noah Fentz, and try to honor that deal.

 

I think you miss read somewhere... I nor anyone else is saying we should be sharing modern tables like stern on VPF.... nowhere in this thread has anyone said anything contrary to that....

its Pual site it Paul rules... the end.... no grey area at all...its a no no, no go... we all get it and understand it.... its not welcome here, so the community doesn't post it here... easy peasy japaneasy 

 

since i'm the analogy master... heres another
 

say I'm a world traveler <sets the stage>

some of the countries have strict laws on killing, eating or serving Dog and Cat meat

while i'm in one of those countries I don't eat Dogs and Cats, nor do I participate in looking for the illegal meat, even tho I might be having a huge hankerin' for some dog chops.... 

but knowing I will soon be in a country that it's perfectly legal to serve and eat Dogs and Cats , i'm content awaiting my arrival to such a place 

but until then I refrain from pursuing that sweet taste of pussy.... cat

[freneticamnesic]

 

"Unauthorized" is purely subjective, and is a term you've adopted to paint yourself as the good guy, and everyone else stealing traffic from you as the bad guy. You like to think of yourself as the funnel at the middle of an hourglass, with the virtual pinball community on one side and the real pinball manufacturers on the other side. Somehow every grain of sand must pass through you. That's a mighty fine way to think of yourself! But it's false and you're lying to everyone. Don't throw around the unauthorized term anymore unless you're including yourself. Besides, the only people actually fooled by that nonsense are people who don't actually care!

 

I think it's more like a beach, the sand occasionally gets kicked around, some things are washed up, and occasionally a dog relieves himself on your castle. Also crabs are involved somehow, but you'd have to ask Shadow about that.

 

hauntfreaks, I don't actually think posting table resources for in-production tables is not allowed here... there's been resources for SAM tables here for ages. It's a silly line to draw, where one resource is allowed because it's low resolution but another is not permitted simply because it's high enough resolution to use on a table recreate, don't you think? I know high res cabinet scans are not allowed because Noah sells them on VirtuaPin, but everything else seems to be fair game.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't respect the rules here, obviously a Ghostbusters table using those pictures isn't allowed. But as far as I know, the pictures are OK? (not stirring anything up if they're not, I've just seen many SAM resources here and on Noah's photobucket for a long time)

 

Unauthorized is far from subjective. I know a helluva lot more about this and what gets discussed 'behind the scenes' than anyone here, and I can tell you, it's going to bite this community in the ass. I, personally, went to Gary Stern and discussed what we can and can't do. I spoke with Roger Sharpe, who took some questions to WMS legal for me. I wanted to make sure we could thrive without an issue. I know the limitations.

 

As for good guy/bad guy stuff, this isn't about traffic, it's about what's right. Do you all have some kind of resource you go to for comments like "Somehow every grain of sand must pass through you."? It seems the ridiculously untrue picture 'painted' of me has rubbed off on you. Who I am is the guy who took the reigns of this once-dying community and invested a ridiculous number of hours/weeks/months/years trying to breathe new life into it.

 

Also note, the scans are not permitted by IP holders, not me, nor does anything I sell on VirtuaPin.net affect how I do things here. Another 'play' out of the Noah haters' Handbook?

 

Just because I disagree with you does not mean I hate you.

 

Unauthorized is absolutely subjective when you're the only one with knowledge of these supposed "agreements" - until those agreements are actually public, provided straight from the manufacturer(s) themselves, the term remains meaningless. You can say it as many times as you want and it still won't be an "official" work until then. I absolutely respect the rules of this site, ON this site. Those rules do not extend to any other website. However, if those websites are hosting unauthorized content, then so are you, so you might refrain from throwing that term around.

 

Think about what you're saying, when everyone has the same opinion about you, isn't that just kind of who you are? Everything from that point in disagreement is denial. Seriously, take a look, a lot of the people who disagree with you aren't stupid. Don't just shrug off my comments as someone reciting from the Paul Haters Handbook (free PDF available to anyone who asks, includes such ZINGERS as "Like sands through the VPF Hourglass, so are the rules of the community" and "UNAUTHORIZED! It's only official when Paul says so!") - I'm not saying you're the bad guy, I'm just saying you're wrong. And everyone else thinks you're wrong, too, just take a look at the number of likes your defensive posts receive, you're not fooling anyone...

 

You're not a martyr. You're not a hero, either, stop with that nonsense. Just be an honest person and stop actively bashing the rest of us. That's the only reason I replied, you knew what you were getting yourself into!

 

One last thing, can you explain why scans of the playfield are permitted by the IP holder but scans of the cabinet artwork are not? Try not to use the line "it's harder to reproduce a playfield" because that sort of reasoning doesn't hold up in court when the IP holders come through with a court order.

[Noah Fentz]

Here's the thing ...

 

It's NOT my rule, it's Gary's. It doesn't apply strictly to VPF, it applies to all virtualization of Stern pinball machines. All it takes is for Gary to notice, and sites will be receiving C&D's.

 

Simple, really.

 

I'm not the bad guy here. I'm just the guy who actually took the time, sat down with Gary, and discussed what we do. I'm just appalled that people can be members here, support what we do, but when the 'rules' (again, not mine) don't suit them, they start up a new website to only muddy things further.

 

If I were the dick people think I am, I'd just call Gary and prove my point ... but that's just not me.

 

Edit: I forgot to answer your last question ...

 

Rick (PPS) has the WMS/Bally license locked down. He sub-licenses, prints, and markets cabinet decals, stencil sets, playfield art, plastics, etc. Wanna see a REAL fast C&D? Offer scanned cabinet art on a website. Just don't say I didn't warn you. There's so much to this stuff that most aren't privy to, and I deal with it, so you don't have to.

 

A quick story, as an example, I received a call from Rick at 7:30am. He demanded I make 'my guy' remove all the LED ghost-fix ROMs he had posted on RGP. Sure, he was a member here, but definitely not 'my guy'. It didn't matter, though. He was a virtual guy, so VPF (and I, personally) was held responsible. See how that works? I don't care if it's other sites or not doing what they do. RIck, Gary, Williams legal, etc will always look my direction first. Period. THAT's the issue. These 'other' sites jeopardize what we're doing here, and it's just not right.

[hauntfreaks]

I dont know where this good guy bad guy thing is coming from.... 

is there someone here that is calling Paul a bad guy in this thread??.... I know I didnt...

also i was mis-quoting... you're right , you're upholding a rule that was said to you by Gary....

which again is 100% understood and well respected here

as for it being a blanketed rule or request ... well that's just not how the world works

 

its kinda like someone saying.... "just because you have some milk i gave ya, dont make cheese out of it"....

i'm not looking to sell anyone's milk or my cheese... but ya cant ask the guy not to make it or share it with your friends.... its not even milk anymore...

 

no one here is cloning the dudes cow and selling the milk.... and out of respect for the guy thats friends with the dude with the cow... we don't share our cheese here...

[lodger]

I know its perhaps not a popular stance, but I appreciate the role that Noah has played in keeping the VP ecosystem together and (as much as possible) non-antagonistic. Manufacturer's perception of vp as benign is critical to its continuation...so I'd exercise caution before anyone threatens that relationship.

 

Noah, one thing that I was wondering was whether there are any existing agreements with the Bally/Williams copyright holders as there is with Stern regarding remaking Bally/Williams tables. (sorry if that's slightly off topic)