1002 replies to this topic

[kingpinner]

What the heck just happened here?? did not expect an announcement like this. Just another step in VPs evolution.

Great work

[mukuste]

Wow! Great enhancement!

 

Is it possible to add these new physics as an option in VP9DX9? If you add this to VP10 we have to wait until it is released and many VP9 tables will not work anymore. So if you add this to the current version optionally (like "use new physics" yes/no) we could benefit from the new physics in all tables available at the moment!

 

Unfortunately, no. I had to make some pretty sweeping changes to the architecture of the physics engine to support the new features, so trying to get both working in the same program sounds like a major headache.

 

Personally, I'm in favor of starting the VP10 branch soon, even if it won't be very stable initially.

[ClarkKent]

 

Wow! Great enhancement!

 

Is it possible to add these new physics as an option in VP9DX9? If you add this to VP10 we have to wait until it is released and many VP9 tables will not work anymore. So if you add this to the current version optionally (like "use new physics" yes/no) we could benefit from the new physics in all tables available at the moment!

 

Unfortunately, no. I had to make some pretty sweeping changes to the architecture of the physics engine to support the new features, so trying to get both working in the same program sounds like a major headache.

 

Personally, I'm in favor of starting the VP10 branch soon, even if it won't be very stable initially.

 

Would it be possible to compile two different versions, one with the old and one with the new physics? So we could use the new physics in VP9!

 

The new physics are really really great! I just played WH2O for a while and it feels much more realistic than before! I only have the feeling that the ball is spinning too much/too often but that could be my first impression. It would be even more realistic if the regular small lift-offs from the playfield and some wobbling on (wire)ramp entrances or exits of the ball from the real tables could be integrated somehow...

 

If I understood it right, most VP9 tables won't be compatible with VP10 so it would be hard times to wait for new tables with the new physics...

[The Loafer]

You don't have to wait clarkkent, it's a different exe that's available now.

[ClarkKent]

You don't have to wait clarkkent, it's a different exe that's available now.

Yeah, I know! But I meant releases with the enhanced physics besides the regular one on a regular basis. So we could begin adapting tables now...

Edited by ClarkKent, 09 April 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[kruge99]

 

You don't have to wait clarkkent, it's a different exe that's available now.

Yeah, I know! But I meant releases with the enhanced physics besides the regular one on a regular basis. So we could begin adapting tables now...

 

 

In my humble opinion this would be very difficult to support for many reasons and would raise a lot of confusion for the folks who are not as technically savvy. 

Let's try to keep this simple, considering how difficult it can get now.

 

EDIT: worked on the physics of my High Speed 1.05 release and I like a lot of what I'm seeing/feeling in this new physics revamp.  I even had a ball with enough spin come down to a partially raised flipper, and instantly grab the rubber, and go partway back up the side line because it had enough spin.

Edited by kruge99, 09 April 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[zany]

WOW...for the first time the ball in VP have a really good feeling of weight, and how it accelerate when rolling down on the table. Also the spinn is fantastic!
A rolling and hit  sound option in the menus would be awesome!

AMAZING work Mukuste!!!!!!

[Sunskift]

Amazing news!
Can't wait to try this out!
Welcome back mukuste!

[lio]

haven't had time to give it a try but you should see the grin on my face!  

just reading about these changes makes me excited! thank you SO much for your work on VP!

a real 3d ball also sounds like a great step in the right direction - can't wait to see that in action!

[mukuste]

 

 

Wow! Great enhancement!

 

Is it possible to add these new physics as an option in VP9DX9? If you add this to VP10 we have to wait until it is released and many VP9 tables will not work anymore. So if you add this to the current version optionally (like "use new physics" yes/no) we could benefit from the new physics in all tables available at the moment!

 

Unfortunately, no. I had to make some pretty sweeping changes to the architecture of the physics engine to support the new features, so trying to get both working in the same program sounds like a major headache.

 

Personally, I'm in favor of starting the VP10 branch soon, even if it won't be very stable initially.

 

Would it be possible to compile two different versions, one with the old and one with the new physics? So we could use the new physics in VP9!

 

The new physics are really really great! I just played WH2O for a while and it feels much more realistic than before! I only have the feeling that the ball is spinning too much/too often but that could be my first impression. It would be even more realistic if the regular small lift-offs from the playfield and some wobbling on (wire)ramp entrances or exits of the ball from the real tables could be integrated somehow...

 

If I understood it right, most VP9 tables won't be compatible with VP10 so it would be hard times to wait for new tables with the new physics...

 

 

I'm happy you like the new physics! Two parallel builds would be possible without much effort. Kruge might have a point though that it could be confusing. Believe me, I'm as antsy as anyone to get this out there and have people start tuning new tables for it... but I don't want to split the community and make it even harder for newcomers to get into VP. If it were to be done like this, there should at least be a startup check to make sure the table is running in the proper version (physics modded or not).

 

About the spinning too much, a lot of that will probably be down to tuning. Right now most physics parameters are hardcoded, for instance the playfield has friction coefficient 0.1 and the flippers 0.8. In a proper release, these will of course be editable.

 

Also, there's a minor issue where the ball is free to rotate around its vertical axis without any friction if it's only touching the playfield. I don't know if this actually creates issues, but I might have to add friction around that axis in the future.

[unclewilly]

I have an idea.
What if we, and by we I mean the devs.
We're to finish up the vp9 dx port. Then release a version of the same port with t&e new physics, That could load vpt files, but save them as a different file extension, say vptp. That way the tables model for the new physics engine would be distinguishable.

Edited by unclewilly, 09 April 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[Swisslizard]

First of all: This is amazing! Cant wait to see the first real tables using the new physics engine

 

 

About the spinning too much, a lot of that will probably be down to tuning. Right now most physics parameters are hardcoded, for instance the playfield has friction coefficient 0.1 and the flippers 0.8. In a proper release, these will of course be editable.

 

About playfield friction, I just had a crazy idea. Having the possibility to a some kind of friction map to the playfield would allow for different friction on different parts of the playfield. This would allow the table makers to simulate the dirty playfields in real machines. Maybe such a friction map could be realized using a grayscale image, where the different levels of grey mean a different friction value. As I said, its just a crazy idea.

 

By the way, Unclewillys idea of having a different extension for tables requiring the new engine is IMHO very good. Otherwise we will have a unholy mess in the future.

Edited by Swisslizard, 09 April 2014 - 09:05 PM.

[Arcade4]

Any way someone could upload a modded table so those of us that are not too good with the program can try it out?

The test tables are great, but real would be better.

[unclewilly]

Feel free to mod and upload anything of mine to the thread. I'm not at home or I would
Btw.
I got really great accuracy on that flipper test table with this

[BananaBoat]

Mukuste, did you manage to replicate the bouncing ball on the flipper?

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

[Slydog43]

wow just played around with a williams 1979 Flash table and it just seems so real after modifing the flippers only.  I haven't even messed with anything else and love how the ball seems to travel more correct.  I think spin is having too much effect, but I assume its another setting I'm missing.  Totally incredible job with this physics mod! Thanks!!!!!

[teppotee]

Different file extension would be the best option for this version (I actually suggested it already on my first post )

 

Once the dx9 version is stable enough -> release it as 9.3 (or whatever) and have it use .vpt file like before. Those tables will be mostly backwards compatible with the 9.2.1 release anyway.

 

Then release this as 9.5 and like UW said have it load .vpt files -> but it would give user a warning that you are loading a "wrong" version. Then save it as new extension. This should clear some confusion. We definitely don't want to end up like FP at the moment with quite a bit of confusion with different physics (2,5, 2.6, zedonious physics, original physics etc.).

 

VP default physics need this overhaul so getting an official 9.5 release would enable builders and modders to start releasing tables to it already quite soon. If we wait for VP10 development it will be a long long time in BETA phase and many table releases will be on hold until it comes out. 

[ClarkKent]

As teppotee suggested I also think VP9DX9 with new physics should be a "prerelease" to VP10. A new file extension would be nice but it should be able to load the regular one. So we could use all VP9 tables with the new physics.

[BananaBoat]

 

I just had a play with this, modified the Attack from mars_B2S table.
I had to turn up strength to 2500.on flippers etc as they felt too weak.
Speed at 1.25-1.5 couldn't notice any changes when playing with this setting.

I have to say, the play is much more challenging and unpredictable so a great result with the new physics.

I did notice the ball likes to jump around when you capture it with the flippers tho.... Anyone else see this or is it table specific?
 

 

Do you mean when you cradle the ball on the upheld flipper, and it jumps around a bit instead of resting? That's some instability I thought I got rid of, at least for the range of parameters we are talking about here. Will have to look into this particular table to see if I can reproduce it. Is it the JPSalas Beta4 version, or another one?

 

 

 

I've noticed also that the ball continues to spin (as seen when decals are turned on) despite it coming to a rest when captured by the flipper. Is this perhaps the reason that the ball tends to jump - some kind of friction is being applied when the ball should actually be at rest?

 

As an interim solution re: the debate on VP DX9/9.5/10 - would it be feasible to have a utility coded up to edit the tables in a designated directory with preset parameters required under the new physics engine? This way - input from table authors are not required and users can decide which version they want to run, independant of any development.

 

Just an idea.

Edited by BananaBoat, 10 April 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[mfuegemann]

Hi,

 

I also like the new effects very much but I think they need more fine tuning (or setting options). For me it is really hard to achive the desired table feeling at the moment. The settings of spinners and flippers used as gates have to be adjusted too, if You want to convert a table. 

 

My suggestion for a VPin9 physics extension is the use of downscaled parameters for strength and force, so that the older tables work out of the box with the default settings.

The newer, much bigger, parameter values should be used in the VP10 version, if necessary.

 

Regards

Michael