89 replies to this topic

[The Loafer]

Jam, I get you got it that way, thanks for the explanation. If I came on strong, the intent was all the way to support those who are at risk and you will note because of the discussion, a change did happen which now, there is a firm position and people can say "ok, I know we can't do THAT but we can do this". Just so we are clear, having been in a similar role to Noah and other admins of pinball forums, in no way do I want roms to be removed, tables to be removed, etc. I also never want anything removed from the internet (not sure where that was assumed!) but if a site admin/owner thinks it should be removed from his/her SITE (big effin difference!) then yeah, I'll support that.

I just want to ensure that those who take that risk, and don't kid yourself, there ARE risks especially with this BS wave of goverment involvement, that these good people are supported with caution. This is good dialog, thanks for responding.

Bob: Great pic, youngest daughter likes it. Boy does that remind me of a certain "hair" thread. I still have those pics you know

Edited by The Loafer, 08 March 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Pintrepid]

@Centrox ... how utterly appropriate a tune for this little thread!

-PeterMac

[StrayDog]

@Centrox: i didn´t mean to call you thieves, i didn´t mean anything, laws are like that, and i am, not ther creator, technically, under law it´s just the way it is
@Jam0: if you don´t want to talk about it, scoot yourself, nobody forced you to do nothing if you are already ok with what you do
@Bob5453: So it´s between you and your mom, and it´s not the p´lace to talk about it
@Analog999:
For all who thinks is a tiresome thread and want to move on, do it, nobody forced you to answer , if you want to move on, you can, i don´t believe you are a kid, and in that case, nobody here is yor mom or dad, so just go playing you frakking pinball and be nice

Thanks for the song and other s##t, but if u want to make fun of me, just open another thread, call it, let´s pull stray dog balls and kidding him because he cares about legality and we don´t, or whatever you like, and don´t answer that saying you do, and you feel offended, because, if you did,your behaviour would feel different.

For others, the good thing is that visual pinball aims to preserve a catalog that would be difficult to preserve , pinball are just not like videogames, it´s not that easy to find nowadays (its pretty difficult indeed), it´s not only a rom file, and for that they should be treated differently.
It would be fantastic an online store with tons of them, with the possibility to legally buy and own them on a virtual pinball machine.

And finally a question for you, it´s worth playing Theatre of Magic on Visual pinball nowadays, when it´s so easy to find and play it virtually on pinball arcade in almost any platform in the market, legally speaking. and it´s correct to leave the recreation here when the sole purpose of this site is to give people the chance to play pinball tables and overcome the poor availabilty. on market and arcades?

[StevOz]

Actually I think it would be really crap and exclusive to have an online store with tons of them, with the possibility to legally buy and own them on a virtual pinball machine. Oh and whilst you contemplate that, try an original table that never existed or would have without VP, hint check my sig.

Edited by StevOz, 08 March 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[JAM0]

And finally a question for you, it´s worth playing Theatre of Magic on Visual pinball nowadays, when it´s so easy to find and play it virtually on pinball arcade in almost any platform in the market, legally speaking. and it´s correct to leave the recreation here when the sole purpose of this site is to give people the chance to play pinball tables and overcome the poor availabilty. on market and arcades?

We are the ones who are buying the pinball arcade tables. And I can tell you personally that I never would have bought anything from them had I not gotten my "pinball bug" reawakened by this site. It has also led me to seek-out real pinball and play that.

Why are you so concerned and why do you want tables to be removed?

[StrayDog]

For me, it´s long story. For all of pinball-ers would be right to know that their work is fair, with creators knowing and agreeing with what is done here, and with licence owners wtitten statement that is ok for them, leaving to them the right change ideas when they want. it´s a question of respect, we are not the creators, we don´t want to harm their business and their ideas, and even if the work here is done for good purpose, for the law that is stealing.

Other thing, can somebody post this stern agreement, or tell me where i can read it

Nobody already thought about asking the pinball companies a legal statement that entitle the domestic use of this simulation, and the work of this foruim agreeing that they are the owners of the rights, and they can delete the material on their free will, leaving to us the opportunity to play it legally uinder their agreement, until they find a reliable and easy way to distribute their titles?

[StevOz]

Those businesses and ideas are history, also not to put to finer point on it, in those days, a lot of what they did was done with stolen ideology in accords with your ideology. Oh and there was no Stern agreement, they were approached by the pinmame team at one time or another, more then once as I recounted from various posts on the topic, all verbal nothing written and as I recollect it was a matter of live and let live, so long as it's not for profit and no emulation of machines still in production.

Edited by StevOz, 08 March 2012 - 03:23 PM.

[Arcade4]

For me, it´s long story. For all of pinball-ers would be right to know that their work is fair, with creators knowing and agreeing with what is done here, and with licence owners wtitten statement that is ok for them, leaving to them the right change ideas when they want. it´s a question of respect, we are not the creators, we don´t want to harm their business and their ideas, and even if the work here is done for good purpose, for the law that is stealing.

Other thing, can somebody post this stern agreement, or tell me where i can read it

Nobody already thought about asking the pinball companies a legal statement that entitle the domestic use of this simulation, and the work of this foruim agreeing that they are the owners of the rights, and they can delete the material on their free will, leaving to us the opportunity to play it legally uinder their agreement, until they find a reliable and easy way to distribute their titles?

[JAM0]

StrayDog, as they say in Medieval Madness: who the fu*k are you?

[Noah Fentz]

Come on now, be nice.

There sure has been a lot of flame wars and animosity on the site lately. Let's not have this discussion head in that direction.

Thank you.

[StrayDog]

@Jam0, It´s not pertinent to the topic

[Centrox]

May I ask what it is you expect to get out of this thread? It seems to me you are looking for solid proof that pinball emulation and simulation are 100% legal. We have told you that it is a gray area and we believe we are in the right by claiming "fair use". The only way to prove our position is to go before a court of law and let a judge decide. If you are not comfortable with this gray area, then again I urge you to move on and find another hobby. Perhaps bird watching. Just make sure you don't trespass on any private land while doing so. That would be ILLEGAL

As to your Theater of Magic comment, this community invented running recreations of existing pinball machines while emulating the hardware to run the original roms. So just because someone comes along later and releases a commercial product is no reason for us to remove what existed beforehand. That being said, if a rights holder requested something to be removed I would guess it would be removed from this site. Noah would have to make the call on that. I myself do feel an obligation to purchase a retail alternative when one is available. I also feel obligated to frequent the pinball museum or drop a few coins in a machine I find in the wild. I also feel obligated to keep paying $10 a year to this site even though I no longer need to download 5+ files in a day. I do it because I love pinball and I love being able to play pinball more often since pinball machines are getting harder to find. So you bringing up this topic of legality again has a tendency to irritate some of the people here.

Sooner or later everyone will run afoul of some law. Here in the states about 40,000* new laws went into effect in 2012. The odds are against you!


*http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45819570/ns/us_news-life/t/new-laws-toughen-rules-abortions-immigrants-voters/#.T1kJ7vVC0xM

[wildman]

For real how many times its gettin old

[Greywolf]

I also feel obligated to frequent the pinball museum...

Hmm, I think I've asked this before, but you frequent the PPM? I go once in a while anymore. They've asked me to be a docent; I think I'll be more suited to helping Melissa with the scientific presentations...

Also: Nice parody on The Trial.

Edited by Greywolf, 08 March 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[StrayDog]

@Centrox: can you explain to me how it goes under the fair use category?

As i understand from your words, pinball it´s an hobby for you, so you don´t have to feel obligated in nothing, if you are, it´s perhaps your conscience is guilty, just think aboutt that

[destruk]

It could possibly be a wakeup call for FREEDOM! And a blow to common evil. A giant leap for an ant, and we have nothing to fear but read my lips.

[JAM0]

It could possibly be a wakeup call for FREEDOM! And a blow to common evil. A giant leap for an ant, and we have nothing to fear but read my lips.

It could be a blow to an ant too

[DeeGor]

Seems like a lot of these types of threads are popping up lately. This topic has been debated to death, and everyone already knows the answer to this question.

It almost seems like it keeps getting brought back up to stir up trouble.

[Bob5453]

If we had more Chinese members, this StrayDog would be lunch.

If you need a permission slip to play, my mom said she would write you one.

[rascal]

Play as long as you can and if the cops are at the door then you played too long.

The world owes me, so I take whatever I can for free, be it legal or illegal. There are plenty of so called legal crooks taking money out of my pocket, so screw em. If it isn't screwed down, I'll take it.

I also do home security, so let me know your address when you go on vacation and I'll watch your house for you.