118 replies to this topic

[analog999]

... my understanding is that you cannot have the min/max slope the same, else the gdl(global difficulty level) is moot.

I am going to try WH2O right now to see if this works better or not

cheers,
maceman

....also, the flippers on Wh2) should be moved down exactly 4 points. Shift-Click both flippers, right-click to unlock them, then arrow down 4 times, and re-lock....then there will be smooth flipper rolling rather than a bounce....

Agreed, I had moved mine down but failed to mention it because it wasn't a physics change per se (and this happens plenty in real life, although it bugs me in real life too!). In the effort of just making the table better overall, I'll put your comments in.

Edited by analog999, 18 December 2011 - 04:20 AM.

[chas]

interesting opinions on the flipper settings.

i did play real PB.

there have been alot of discussions with flipper performance.

imo,

sometimes flippers were too small and or too short out of the DL......
could drive a truck through the flippers...

i find that scaling the flippers to the desired radius, heigth, length, spacing of the gap and the look for the table, changes to start angle, end angle, flippers and rails aligned straigth then dont forget elasticity at about 0.4 - 0.5 was a definite improvement for smoother better flipper performance.

first i scaled the flippers to the desired look as above.
then used the grid to align flippers, flipper gap, rails and drains to an equal desired look.
start angle120/240.
end angle 65/295.
sometimes a little lower end angle depending on the table at 70/290 or 67.5/292.5 for tables with lower PF targets.....
then set strength on max 5, swing at 0.065 - 0.09 maybe higher to get the right speed at or a little below to what the eye can see.
every real table i played, slings, flippers and rubber bumpers were at a speed the eye could see.
the eye is not designed for high speed.
when i have a desired speed my eyes can see then the OB 0 - 2 maybe higher for more acurrate performance .
played well.
if you are happy with your settings or the DL settings on strength 1 and speed 0.237 its up to you.

this is how it worked best for me on an older modified single core with a GT220 and faster DDR2 RAM.

imo, end angle at 58/302 was too high.
too much swing.
flipper start angle 115/245 was too high.
flippers usually did not align well with the straigthened rails.

EX:
go into the IPDB.org
http://ipdb.org/sear...earchtype=quick
in the PF screenshot get a good look at the flippers and rails.
the flippers drop low.
rails are aligned straigth with flippers and slings.
the rail does not curve back up to the PF.
played good after making the changes to the flippers and rails similar or close to the IPDB PF screenshot with my settings..

general table performance is good on most tables after making the changes on a slow single core..

the VP program is good.
thumbs up.......

Edited by chas, 18 December 2011 - 04:46 AM.

[rob046]

If I'm not mistaken, "slope" is the inclination of the table, and "gravity constant" is basically the weight of the ball. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

OK, but slope does add gravity to the ball (weight, whatever you want to call it). If you start a blank table. Triple the min/max slope setting, which is 18. Play with that. Then set it back & triple the gravity setting, to 3. I get the exact same result.
So again I'm still wondering not only what this setting does on a practical, tangible level, but why is it jacked up all the way to 1.6 or 1.7 on so many tables?
Are people just messing with settings they know nothing about?

Did 1 guy decide to add this setting on a table way back in early VP9 days, just messing around, & everybody else just followed along despite not knowing what it does? I think now people may be adding gravity only because other tables have it. Or, there is a perfectly good reason why this setting has been messed with, & I'm just waiting on somebody who can tell me why?
& if that setting is moot, let's make life easier & not have gameplay slope tied into 2 settings instead of just 1. Makes tweaking a lot easier if we only have to worry about slope, & if a 7 degree slope would have the same effect on all tables. As of now it doesn't, because of the differing gravity settings.

[Noah Fentz]

If I'm not mistaken, "slope" is the inclination of the table, and "gravity constant" is basically the weight of the ball. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

OK, but slope does add gravity to the ball (weight, whatever you want to call it). If you start a blank table. Triple the min/max slope setting, which is 18. Play with that. Then set it back & triple the gravity setting, to 3. I get the exact same result.
So again I'm still wondering not only what this setting does on a practical, tangible level, but why is it jacked up all the way to 1.6 or 1.7 on so many tables?
Are people just messing with settings they know nothing about?

Did 1 guy decide to add this setting on a table way back in early VP9 days, just messing around, & everybody else just followed along despite not knowing what it does? I think now people may be adding gravity only because other tables have it. Or, there is a perfectly good reason why this setting has been messed with, & I'm just waiting on somebody who can tell me why?
& if that setting is moot, let's make life easier & not have gameplay slope tied into 2 settings instead of just 1. Makes tweaking a lot easier if we only have to worry about slope, & if a 7 degree slope would have the same effect on all tables. As of now it doesn't, because of the differing gravity settings.

You don't get the same result, if you nudge the ball around in your test. Gravity set to 1.0, the default, has the floaty ball feel of VP8. The increase in gravity has greatly improved the feeling of weight in the ball. The figure 1.6774, I think it is, came directly from the tables from an UltraPin. Those were set by those who developed the engine.

[Wizards_Hat]

... my understanding is that you cannot have the min/max slope the same, else the gdl(global difficulty level) is moot.

I am going to try WH2O right now to see if this works better or not

cheers,
maceman

Well...yes, setting min/max slope the same will negate the Global Difficulty Level, and just set the slope to min [Table slope is calculated using: Slope = SlopeMin + ((SlopeMax – SlopeMin) x GlobalDifficulty)]

However, does anyone know of any table that makes use of Global Difficulty Level? It's not something you can change on the fly, it has to be set in the editor. So I can't actually see the point to it. Anyone care to tell me differently?

Regards,
Dan.

Edited by Wizards_Hat, 18 December 2011 - 07:33 AM.

[chas]

gentlemen,
scaling and aligning flippers, straighten rails to the flippers and changing start and end angle plays well.
try it with Alien Star.
get a good look at the flippers and rails in the screenshot at IPDB.
the original DL needed some changes.


are you going to try my suggestion in post 42?

Edited by chas, 18 December 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[analog999]

gentlemen,
scaling and aligning flippers, straighten rails to the flippers and changing start and end angle plays well.
try it with Alien Star.
get a good look at the flippers and rails in the screenshot at IPDB.
the original DL needed some changes.


are you going to try my suggestion in post 42?

Chas - are all those numbers the settings for Alien Star or for some other table, or for all tables in general? It's kind of hard to follow what you're saying.

[JAM0]

If I'm not mistaken, "slope" is the inclination of the table, and "gravity constant" is basically the weight of the ball. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Sounds good to me. By the way, would anyone be interested in having me list games that I feel play very well as is? Should I list those ones for completeness? ie, JP's Cirqus Voltaire and LOTR both play very very well. Almost makes me want to sell mine and get my money back out of them...

I'm definitely interested in such a list. Any physics insights from guys like you and Noah who play tons of real pinball is really valuable in my book.

I enjoy watching those PAPA videos, and I usually go straight to VP after watching to play a few games. But I don't play well my first couple of games as subconsciously I am expecting the physics to be like they are in the videos. After I adjust I play better but it often feels constrained compared to the real thing. Your physics changes, for example on Gilligans Island are like night and day. It's nice to know that there is is a lot of room in VP settings for the physics to be improved

I definitely agree with you on JP's LOTR and CV.

Edited by JAM0, 18 December 2011 - 11:46 AM.

[chas]

Chas - are all those numbers the settings for Alien Star or for some other table, or for all tables in general? It's kind of hard to follow what you're saying. <<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

sorry if i was not clear.
i was trying to make a point that scaling flippers to the right look, aligniing flippers and rails will improve gameplay.

ill explain a little better.

this is for FS tables using VP9xx desktop editor.

the only setting that will be the same is flipper start angle and end angle.
flipper scaling, strength and space gap will not be the same on all tables.
10 - 20 in the grid to align flippers with a fair gap.

Alien Star is an example.
made the changes in the editor similar to the IPDB screenshot.

first i started with flipper scale sizing for the right look.
changes to base radius was usually around 24 - 26.
end radius 12- 14.
length 120 - 140, sometimes more to get the right look depending on the table.
start angle 120/240.
end angle 65/295.

flipper start angle and end angle in my previous post #42 will be the same for all or most tables.
sometimes lower end angle on some tables if there are low PF targets at 70/290 or 67.5/292.5.
if the end angle is too high it may be a difficult to hit low PF targets.

after scaling and aligning flippers in the grid to the right look and creating a fair space gap clicked yes to save changes to close.

restart.

i then did the flipper rails.
right click on the rails.
if in grey unlock it so you can make the changes.
it should be blue to make changes.
left click on the rail to highlight in blue.
the control points will be in red circles.
i started with the upper control point on the rail at the flipper.
left click and drag it to align even and smooth with the flipper.
or drag the control point to overlap even over the top of the flipper.
the ball will roll smooth down the rail smoothly onto the flipper.

look everything over.
with start angle at 120/240 the rails and flippers should be aligned straight and smooth.

now do the flipper physics.
left click on the flipper or use the object menu at the top left of the script.
start with 5, 0.075, elasticity 0.4 - 0.5 and oblique 0.

click yes to save changes and close back to desktop.
restart.
play it.
you might still have a few more changes to make with flipper physics and the rails.
there might be a bump or a flaw in the rail or at the flipper.
go back to editor.
make the changes with the control points or maybe make changes to the flippers again.
maybe move them down a little more in the grid.

repeat untill you have desired gameplay.
click yes to save changes.

before making changes to your table do this first.
right click on your existing table.
it will highlight in blue.
press the -> arrow key to go to the end or it will erase the title.
rename it.
you cannot have 2 files in the same folder with the same name.
type anything at the end or type _1.
EX....alien star_FS_1
press enter to confirm.
you will extract another copy from the zipped or RAR file to the folder.
make the changes to the new copy without changing your existing table.

Edited by chas, 18 December 2011 - 11:28 PM.

[analog999]

Chas - This sounds like a pretty fair process, and is basically what I do. Thanks for spelling it out. I agree, the best thing to do is get the flippers looking as natural as possible according to position and size. Based on how the table is scaled, this might be different. I don't think it really matters what the flipper front and end radius is, as long as the length of the leading edge of the flipper is the right length and set to the correct angle from the inlanes. But it is good to get it scaled correctly for aesthetics. Realize that some tables stretch and shrink the flippers in different ways - some people include the rear perpendicular portion of the back wall, and that will modify how the flippers will look.

If you want to start posting specific tables to try this on, say Alien Star, give us the complete breakdown of all numbers you change, and exactly how you change the flippers. I'll try them myself and post the results.

There are many times that other changes to tables that can be made in order to make them play better. For example, on Bally Strikes & Spares, I moved the sling shots up and out a little bit. Although I've never played it in real life, I know that there is no way the designer would have made the space between the flippers and the sling shots that tight - it doesn't feel right. l looked at the IPDB and sure enough, in the IPDB pictures it appears that the slings were up and out a little bit. So I moved them to match the IPDB pics and the game played much better.

Edited by analog999, 19 December 2011 - 12:39 AM.

[chas]

I don't think it really matters what the flipper front and end radius is,>>>>>>>>
this was just a suggestion to get as close as possible to the real as in the IPDB.
scaling flippers too size does make a difference in getting the right look and flipper performance to look and play real as possible.

If you want to start posting specific tables to try this on, say Alien Star, give us the complete breakdown of all numbers you change, and exactly how you change the flippers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Alien Star :
strength on 5, speed 0.075, elasticity 0.45, scatter 0, oblique 0 and im pretty sure power law 2.
if you feell it is too fast bump down the SPEED to 0.07/0.0675.
0.065 might be a little on the slow side.

how to change flippers>>>>>>>>
what???
aww, come on analogue.
you have been her longer than i have.
you should know this.

its a little hard to explain.
if you still want my opinion reply back.

i played real PB.
a few buddies and i would go play at the bowling alley all afternoon.
when the bowling league showed up we gave the replays away to the kids.

imo, the table should play clean and smooth.
flippers, slings and rubber bumpers healthy at or a little below what the eye can see.
the eye is not designed for high speed.
some tables are designed to play fast at a maximum speed the eye can see.
High Speed and Getaway are 2 tables that come to mind.

i have found that scaling of the flippers to proper size, length and position is the key for better flipper performance.
rails should be aligned straight with the flippers so the ball will pass through smooth to set the ball up for a clean flipper swing.
i hope this helped on how to set the table up with a general idea how it should play.
the only way i could possibly make it better is to play the real table.
the VP program is very good.

Edited by chas, 19 December 2011 - 09:02 AM.

[analog999]

I'll try them next time I'm at my hyperpin.

Diamond Lady added. No surprise, OC 4.5. Others test & confirm please.

I'm still mucking around with whitewater. I am really not happy with the upper flipper and the way the ball leaves the lower flippers if the ball is approaching the flipper moving - not from a flipper catch. From a catch, my numbers are pretty good, I think, but from a running start, the ball goes too far to the opposite side of the playfield. I'm not sure how to correct this! Increasing the OC helps, but then it ruins the shots from a catch settings. Increasing speed changes angles too.

I will try messing with the settings more after I've tried Chas' suggestion. I agree with him - OC should ideally be 0. If the physics of this were based on real physics, you'd have these settings that would make any appreciable difference on shots -

Flipper start and end angles
Flipper length
Flipper initial strength (which will equate to a greater speed if there is only one ball hitting or resting on the flipper)
Flipper hold strength - when a flipper is all the way up, it is weaker than initial strength on new SS tables due to EOS switch
Flipper retraction time - how long does it take the flipper to fall back (ie is there a spring pressing the coil rod forward)
Table slope - which would define how hard a ball would hit the flipper when it is coming down
Rubber Elasticity - how does the ball bounce when it hits the flipper as it is coming down at the flipper

Gravity should be constant on all tables, and the "weight" of the ball should be determined by ball size (standard size vs smaller balls etc). Noah has answered this for us it seems, at least for regular balls, gravity constant (backglass settings) should be about 1.6774.

Obviously, some of these settings do equate to settings in VP... but why have a flipper speed? What is return strength? What is power law? Why is OC necessary?

All things that need to be determined. Excuse me for thinking out loud.

Edited by analog999, 19 December 2011 - 12:02 PM.

[JAM0]

Have you checked out this thread analog999? Interesting discussion and points. It explains somewhat OC. You are right that if all perimeters were realistic, it wouldn't be needed. Eala proposes that the table is too small and this is throwing everything off. Makes sense to me but what do I know

http://www.vpforums....i...825&hl=eala

Edited by JAM0, 19 December 2011 - 01:46 PM.

[analog999]

Have you checked out this thread analog999? Interesting discussion and points. It explains somewhat OC. You are right that if all perimeters were realistic, it wouldn't be needed. Eala proposes that the table is too small and this is throwing everything off. Makes sense to me but what do I know

http://www.vpforums....i...825&hl=eala

Weird, it doesn't show your link unless I quote it?

http://www.vpforums....i...825&hl=eala


Ahh, you were editing the post while I was reading it!! LOL

Edited by analog999, 19 December 2011 - 01:47 PM.

[JAM0]

Have you checked out this thread analog999? Interesting discussion and points. It explains somewhat OC. You are right that if all perimeters were realistic, it wouldn't be needed. Eala proposes that the table is too small and this is throwing everything off. Makes sense to me but what do I know

http://www.vpforums....i...825&hl=eala

Weird, it doesn't show your link unless I quote it?

http://www.vpforums....i...825&hl=eala


Ahh, you were editing the post while I was reading it!! LOL

Yep, that was it

[analog999]

That is an interesting thread. So I agree, Groni did a great job with the Banzai Run physics. He obviously has the notion of how it's done correctly. He used an OC of 3.2, with a dampening of 60! I tried a 70 dampening on Wh20 and it felt slightly off, but it did seem to make the rolling shots better, without hurting the catch shots. I'll do some more testing using some of his numbers to see if there is an improvement.

I guess I could sum up my problem with my settings on whitewater is that as the ball moves faster, the OC seems to get smaller. Almost makes me wonder if the OC value could be changed on the fly in the software, according to ball speed.. like on a given curve or something.

Edit - nope, same problem with the extra wide shots on a moving ball shot. Also 60 dampening really really makes the ball feel very heavy, not realistic at all.

Edited by analog999, 19 December 2011 - 02:17 PM.

[JAM0]

That is an interesting thread. So I agree, Groni did a great job with the Banzai Run physics. He obviously has the notion of how it's done correctly. He used an OC of 3.2, with a dampening of 60! I tried a 70 dampening on Wh20 and it felt slightly off, but it did seem to make the rolling shots better, without hurting the catch shots. I'll do some more testing using some of his numbers to see if there is an improvement.

I guess I could sum up my problem with my settings on whitewater is that as the ball moves faster, the OC seems to get smaller. Almost makes me wonder if the OC value could be changed on the fly in the software, according to ball speed.. like on a given curve or something.

Edit - nope, same problem with the extra wide shots on a moving ball shot. Also 60 dampening really really makes the ball feel very heavy, not realistic at all.

Does Groni have that "60" on the main table or the backbox table?

Agree BR is a great table -- I feel like playing it makes me a better player

Edited by JAM0, 19 December 2011 - 07:56 PM.

[analog999]

Does Groini have that "60" on the main table or the backbox table?

Agree BR is a great table -- I feel like playing it makes me a better player

I honestly don't know. It is in the backglass settings, but that's the same place for the settings for all tables regular playfields. I have no idea how he did that 2nd playfield.

[Bob5453]

dampening of 60

To me, this number controls how fast a ball can travel on the table, like a speed limit. I have it at 30-35 on some of my released tables where I don't want the ball flying around. You have to remember that there are old EM's and you don't want them to play exactly like you would want No Fear to play. I think I set it at 35 on my Knockout table.

When you make one of these tables, you have to decide whether you want to hit shots or not hit shots. On Knockout, I wanted you to be able to shoot the ball up through the spinners like on the real one, so this makes the VP Knockout rather easy once you figure out that shot.

[Wizards_Hat]

dampening of 60

To me, this number controls how fast a ball can travel on the table, like a speed limit.

Correct!
[from the vp guide] "Dampening Speed – Sets the maxballspeed, which is the top speed the ball is allowed to travel at."

However, I still don't have any/a good description for "Dampening friction" - if anyone knows how to describe the effect of this please let me know.

Regards,
Dan.