The eos gap on a real flipper is adjustable via a leaf switch. It should be set so that you really cannot notice its existence. This is not something we want to emulate. Assume that the flipper being held up has sufficient power to keep held up when slammed by a ball. Simulating improperly set up flippers does not seem desirable to me.
I have about 40 pins in my house and spend lots of time repairing and restoring them.
Real flippers do get deflected by fast moving balls, I've seen this happen even on videos of well set up machines like in the PAPA facility. If the force of the ball hitting the flipper is greater than that of the coil pushing it up, why wouldn't it get deflected?
Because if the EOS gaps are set up correctly, the ball slams into the flipper and the flipper does not move a noticeable amount of space before a HV pulse is sent back to the flipper holding it into position. Not every machine filmed at PAPA is guaranteed to be set up correctly. Not every machine that comes new in the box is either. But when set up correctly, this is how it is suppose to work.
As far as scatter is concerned, I think we would never want it on kickouts, plungers or mechanical devices. These are generally very controlled. Kickouts on properly set up machines are very consistent. Think juggler lock on cv or passing ball from kickout to kickout on nba fast break. Or all the scoops that eject the ball like guns n roses , TZ. Last thing you want is artificial randomness on these mechs.
This runs contrary to my experience... on the TZ that I played, sometimes you could simply hold up the right flipper to catch the ball coming out of the eject, sometimes it would drain if you did that. So you had to try a live catch to be on the safe side. This keeps gameplay engaging and fun in my opinion.
A properly set up TZ should be extremely consistent out of the scoop. (I own this game, and when I bought mine I had to replace the scoop and rebuild the mech to get it consistent. Now it is). It might not be mathematically identical, but it is practically identical. Yes, you can absolutely hold your flipper in one position and always catch the ball the same way - or you can hold the flipper and always not catch the ball the same way. On my game, you can always let it flipper bounce pass to the other flipper and catch the ball. When I get a new machine, these scoops always need to be replaced. They get small divots. The mechs need coil sleeves replaced and other things like this. Once all that is done, these mechs are extremely consistent. The ball coming out of the slot machine is not intended to be a risky play. And when the game was new, it wasn't. Unfortunately, you cannot always judge how these things *should* work by playing routed beaters are your local bar.
So I realize I am saying "no randomness". But really I mean "no practical randomness". I realize it is probably not mathematically perfect. But it should be very close in play. A kick out scoop from say TZ should never sometimes shoot straight between the flippers. Never. I suppose there could be some very slight randomness - very slight in strength but it should never cause a drain.
If there's all this randomness, then how do mechs like CV juggler lock manage to work consistently? That's where one kick out hole passes to another. Same with NBA Fast break. If that was all randomized, the ball would never be passable. In that game you can pass it between 4 kickouts and shoot to the basket. It *always* works. Over time, the kick out holes start to wear, playfields get dirty, and things stop working as consistently as they did when new. But one of the benefits of a virtual pin is they don't suffer from these things. The game should be able to play like new. Perhaps the level of randomness you're considering is so small that all these things continue to work. If so, I'm ok with that. But if you're thinking they should only be working like 80% of the time because that's been your experience, I'm telling you as a person that owns 40 machines in my house, it's not suppose to be that way at all.
lots of tables i used from you bigboss only thing is some table shave lack of power in flippers like attack from mars i can make perfect middle shots but cant make ramps etc , also on some table with physics 2 ball gets stuck on ramps, also plungers that not have enough power do you have updated tables in your dropbox from the last time ?
The link I gave you is updated as I go. But as I told you in the PM's, I cannot reproduce any of your problems listed above. I can easily hit 5-way combo in attack from mars which requires plenty of ramp shots in a short amount of time. As for physics2 ball getting stuck on "some tables", I cannot really speak to that. You would have to be very specific. I did not test every single table all the way to wizard mode. But I cannot speak to "sometimes the ball gets stuck" with no further details. I can speak to attack from mars though. I played that one quite a bit during testing.
Got to agree I've experienced the juggler missing a catch on the real machine, then the rom software had to kick in to correct it and this was a very new, well maintained machine.
A machine can be very well maintained and need to have mechs cleaned and rebuilt at the same time. My real CV never misses a juggle, ever.
The same holds for the plunger discussion, by the way. Do a full hard plunge several times so that variation caused by the player is eliminated. Do you really see the ball end up in exactly the same position, bouncing off the bumpers at exactly the same angle? Definitely not, it would be unrealistic and exploitable if it did.
I'll give you this one. Plungers are a bit more random for a few reasons.
Speaking of all this. Perhaps it would be neat to consider a machine age setting where the randomness increases based on this setting (could be the machine difficulty setting also).
Edited by BigBoss, 04 May 2014 - 11:40 AM.
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