2087 replies to this topic

[mukuste]

Yes, VP has a full simulation of angular velocity which is independent of linear velocity and which takes into account collisions and the inertial tensor.

 

As for the mass, yes, I was only talking collisions. Certainly it has an effect on the rolling speed. One of these days I have to do the math and see if changing the mass gives new effects which you couldn't also achieve by changing the playfield slope and the friction.

Edited by mukuste, 19 February 2014 - 12:12 AM.

[arngrim]

Are you telling that if i'm a so bad player is not because of me but because of vp?

[fuzzel]

Well usually the problem is in front of the computer, so I guess you are a bad player

[arngrim]

Ok don't change the physics engine of vp as a proof

[fuzzel]

Ok done;)

[insx]

If you can do something about the physics I would recommend to make the ball more controllable by the flippers. At the moment it's hard and almost every time a lucky shot to precisely shoot in the desired direction. This can not be compared to a real pinball machine in any way.

 

Is the aim very random (eg, at shot that should go up the middle goes around the left loop)? or is it just not quite precise? I had the very random problem until I switched off one of the video options (something to do with sync, I don't have VP available in front of me right now).

[Slydog43]

I think the aim in VP is very good.  Most tables I can aim the ball exactly where I want it to go.  FP is another story completely.

[IPJball]

Hey, sorry to change the subject, bug report for tablets 1920x1080 windowed fullscreen:

For the dx9 test 3,

Funhouse (JPSalas Vp9 version, full screen) small graphical glitch over white light of the flashing red blue and white lights on top.

Funhouse night mod Vp9 full screen: small triangle glitch over white light of the flashing red blue and white lights on top.

Didn't attach any photos because I don't know how, the photo button on here requires a url?

Still playing other tables, that's all for now I guess!

Thank you to all you guys who know how to recreate pinball perfectly!

(that's everyone)

[kruge99]

I think the aim in VP is very good.  Most tables I can aim the ball exactly where I want it to go.  FP is another story completely.

 

I concur, Visual Pinball physics does need some work, but in my humble opinion, FP physics just can't be compared to VP because it's a completely different physics engine, with it's own set of idiosyncrasies.  I think Clark Kent, you are in a minority group of people who want to make Visual Pinball more like Future Pinball, so you have an up-hill battle here to try and convince the masses that your solution is better.  By the way, I'm not making a personal attack here, I'm merely stating the facts, so please don't take my comments as a personal attack because it's not.

[ClarkKent]

 

I think the aim in VP is very good.  Most tables I can aim the ball exactly where I want it to go.  FP is another story completely.

 

I concur, Visual Pinball physics does need some work, but in my humble opinion, FP physics just can't be compared to VP because it's a completely different physics engine, with it's own set of idiosyncrasies.  I think Clark Kent, you are in a minority group of people who want to make Visual Pinball more like Future Pinball, so you have an up-hill battle here to try and convince the masses that your solution is better.  By the way, I'm not making a personal attack here, I'm merely stating the facts, so please don't take my comments as a personal attack because it's not.

 

I do not want to make VP like any other pinball simulation. I have real pinball machines and I can only compare VP to them. And the physics in VP is not comparable to real pinball machines. Mostly because the ball is not as controllable as on a real pinball (and because mass is totally missing, behaves like a rubber ball at the moment). It's more random in the simulation. You can only add your experiences here if you have real pinball machines by yourself.

 

If you can do something about the physics I would recommend to make the ball more controllable by the flippers. At the moment it's hard and almost every time a lucky shot to precisely shoot in the desired direction. This can not be compared to a real pinball machine in any way.

 

Is the aim very random (eg, at shot that should go up the middle goes around the left loop)? or is it just not quite precise? I had the very random problem until I switched off one of the video options (something to do with sync, I don't have VP available in front of me right now).

 

It's worth to investigate. Can you tell me your exact solution for that?

Edited by ClarkKent, 19 February 2014 - 02:03 PM.

[vulbas]

hello, 

i don't see dx9test3, i have one and two but i don't see the 3. where is it ?

[Pinball999]

hello, 

i don't see dx9test3, i have one and two but i don't see the 3. where is it ?

 

You'll find it in post 399.

[htamas]

I do not want to make VP like any other pinball simulation. I have real pinball machines and I can only compare VP to them. And the physics in VP is not comparable to real pinball machines. Mostly because the ball is not as controllable as on a real pinball (and because mass is totally missing, behaves like a rubber ball at the moment). It's more random in the simulation. You can only add your experiences here if you have real pinball machines by yourself.

 

I don't think this last statement is true.

I don't have any real pinball machines, but I played A LOT of them in real life, and I can only say that depending on the table and the physics tweaking, some tables can (and do) come very close to a real pinball experience. Certainly this depends on a lot of things but such a blanket statement is incorrect. And it IS possible to make very consistent shots on real tables if you are a good player and you know that particular machine well - just like in VP. The flipper control in VP can be pretty darn good. This doesn't mean of course that it always is, but the possibility is certainly there even with the current physics engine.

I'm not saying there is no room for improvement (there always is), however I don't feel those glaring problems you are talking about. Perhaps the VP renditions of the tables you own is not the best, but this doesn't mean it is the fault of the physics engine.

Edited by htamas, 19 February 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[toxie]

Is the aim very random (eg, at shot that should go up the middle goes around the left loop)? or is it just not quite precise? I had the very random problem until I switched off one of the video options (something to do with sync, I don't have VP available in front of me right now).

 

 

 

Interesting in that context is also that actually there are two (not so known) settings that also control the physics 'randomness':

In the table itself (Global Difficulty Level: 0..1  0 switches off randomness (almost) completely) or in the registry ("GlobalDifficulty" 0..100  0 switches off again)

 

Just in case somebody wants to do some more testing with the physics, cause i actually was stumbled the first time i saw this in the code as this is not just influencing the table slope as i expected.

I don't think this last statement is true.

I don't have any real pinball machines, but I played A LOT of them in real life, and I can only say that depending on the table and the physics tweaking, some tables can (and do) come very close to a real pinball experience. Certainly this depends on a lot of things but such a blanket statement is incorrect. And it IS possible to make very consistent shots on real tables if you are a good player and you know that particular machine well. The flipper control in VP can be pretty darn good. This doesn't mean of course that it always is, but the possibility is certainly there even with the current physics engine.

I'm not saying there is no room for improvement (there always is) however I don't feel those glaring problems you are talking about. Perhaps the VP renditions of the tables you own is not the best, but this doesn't mean it is the fault of the physics engine.

 

 

This is where i agree. Some tables are very very close to the real machines (also remember some of the ultrapin videos back then which had side by side comparisons, etc).

The thing is that some of the settings in VP allow for having rather weird physical behavior, so some feel more unrealistic then they should, as the author maybe didn't know the real table and/or likes this kind of behavior.

 

That's part of the reason why i created the physics presets for table and flippers, to have a database for table authors (and users). Unfortunately it seems like people keep this kind of settings for themselves so far and do not share em.  :/

[insx]

ClarkKent, I think it was Adaptive VSync that I had switched on when the aim was very random. The frame rate was alternating something like this: 500, 50, 500, 50, 500, 50. Without this happening, I think the aim is fine for a computer simulation and I have owned quite a few real pinball machines.

[toxie]

adaptive vsync was broken in an older version of VP, this would explain the effect you are seeing with 500,50,500,etc

or is this also happening with recent builds?

 

apart from that there is still something fishy with the physics simulation as soon as FPS drop below 100 (200) FPS, but we don't know exactly why yet.

[insx]

 

hello, 

i don't see dx9test3, i have one and two but i don't see the 3. where is it ?

 

You'll find it in post 399.

 

The easy way to find the various versions is to go to the very first post in the thread.

adaptive vsync was broken in an older version of VP, this would explain the effect you are seeing with 500,50,500,etc

or is this also happening with recent builds?

 

I haven't tried a recent build, just the standard 9.2 from the download link at the top of the page. I'm hoping for the DX9 version to take away all my VP stresses

Edited by insx, 19 February 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[toxie]

The one directly linked up there is actually still 9.1.5 (which reminds me of something ), so please try/make sure to have 9.2.0.

[ClarkKent]

 

Is the aim very random (eg, at shot that should go up the middle goes around the left loop)? or is it just not quite precise? I had the very random problem until I switched off one of the video options (something to do with sync, I don't have VP available in front of me right now).

 

 

 

Interesting in that context is also that actually there are two (not so known) settings that also control the physics 'randomness':

In the table itself (Global Difficulty Level: 0..1  0 switches off randomness (almost) completely) or in the registry ("GlobalDifficulty" 0..100  0 switches off again)

 

Just in case somebody wants to do some more testing with the physics, cause i actually was stumbled the first time i saw this in the code as this is not just influencing the table slope as i expected.

I don't think this last statement is true.

I don't have any real pinball machines, but I played A LOT of them in real life, and I can only say that depending on the table and the physics tweaking, some tables can (and do) come very close to a real pinball experience. Certainly this depends on a lot of things but such a blanket statement is incorrect. And it IS possible to make very consistent shots on real tables if you are a good player and you know that particular machine well. The flipper control in VP can be pretty darn good. This doesn't mean of course that it always is, but the possibility is certainly there even with the current physics engine.

I'm not saying there is no room for improvement (there always is) however I don't feel those glaring problems you are talking about. Perhaps the VP renditions of the tables you own is not the best, but this doesn't mean it is the fault of the physics engine.

 

 

This is where i agree. Some tables are very very close to the real machines (also remember some of the ultrapin videos back then which had side by side comparisons, etc).

The thing is that some of the settings in VP allow for having rather weird physical behavior, so some feel more unrealistic then they should, as the author maybe didn't know the real table and/or likes this kind of behavior.

 

That's part of the reason why i created the physics presets for table and flippers, to have a database for table authors (and users). Unfortunately it seems like people keep this kind of settings for themselves so far and do not share em.  :/

 

Straight middle shots are hard to perform in every table. That's maybe why the oblique correction option was added. It makes shots more straight but then shots to the left and right are more difficult. Overall it's hard to aim. On my pinball machines I know if I hit the ball with a specific part of the flipper and at a specific speed the ball goes to a specific direction - so I can plan shots very well. On VP this is sometimes possible but not often that way.

 

VP physics is not THAT bad. I never said that. But it can not be compared to real life. Some tables are better, some worse. There are some really nice tables that are fun to play - but if they can be compared to a real machine? Hmmm, I doubt that. It's certainly also a settings thing. But all in all - let's be totally frank: ball control could be better. Ball mass could be more realistic, it's simply to jumpy at the moment. And trust me - I've never seen a massive steel ball jumping on the ground several times when dropping it, doesn't it?

 

As far as I can tell from the videos, Unity3D provides are more realistic engine. Let's see what the final version is able to!

[kruge99]

 

 

I think the aim in VP is very good.  Most tables I can aim the ball exactly where I want it to go.  FP is another story completely.

 

I concur, Visual Pinball physics does need some work, but in my humble opinion, FP physics just can't be compared to VP because it's a completely different physics engine, with it's own set of idiosyncrasies.  I think Clark Kent, you are in a minority group of people who want to make Visual Pinball more like Future Pinball, so you have an up-hill battle here to try and convince the masses that your solution is better.  By the way, I'm not making a personal attack here, I'm merely stating the facts, so please don't take my comments as a personal attack because it's not.

 

I do not want to make VP like any other pinball simulation. I have real pinball machines and I can only compare VP to them. And the physics in VP is not comparable to real pinball machines. Mostly because the ball is not as controllable as on a real pinball (and because mass is totally missing, behaves like a rubber ball at the moment). It's more random in the simulation. You can only add your experiences here if you have real pinball machines by yourself.

 

Actually, I do have real machines that I play almost every day and I have created a few visual pinball tables so I do think my pinball experiences are worth mentioning here.