Jump to content



Photo
* * * * * 13 votes

VP physics overhaul


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1002 replies to this topic

#421 Pinbotfan

Pinbotfan

    Hobbyist

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Pinbot

Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:06 AM

Pinbotfan: what you are talking about is only the visual effect of the table shaking, which has absolutely nothing to do with the physics. In the DX7 versions, this was simply implemented as offsetting the whole screen by a few pixels (which is why the backdrop was moving as well). Believe me, there is absolutely no provision in the source code for shaking the table as far as the physics are concerned.

 

I always figured the ball was moving as far as the algorithm, with the shift as a visual effect. It was effective though in looking like the table moving under the ball. It's ALL just visual effects anyway.

 

I agreed that adding the reverse to get it back would be great, table or ball, and all that is really needed. Does the table recoil put the ball back to about where it was when using an analog device on a cabinet?


Edited by Pinbotfan, 30 April 2014 - 01:07 AM.


#422 randr

randr

    I'm just a hardware guy so...

  • VIP
  • 2,650 posts
  • Location:Minnesota

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Twilight Zone

Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:04 AM

I love the new physics so much, but my limited ability to mod tables is stopping me from getting Laser War 1.0.3 FS from working right.  The ball gets plunged way too hard.  I have moved the impulse plunger off to the side and added a new modern flipper, but the ball also plunges waaaaaay to fast.  Maybe friction of the ramps?  Any1 have any ideas.  (one problem of the new physics is that its hard to play the old VP9.2.1 now after seeing how much better it can be.   Many table edits are on the horizon.  Thanks mukuste for all your incredible work!

Slydog,

 

Can you share a table you feel is good? I have not been impressed with what i have tried. No offense Mukuste maybe i'm not doing whatever needs to be done correctly? 


randr___pinball.png                         


#423 BigBoss

BigBoss

    Pinball Fan

  • VP Dev Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 750 posts

  • Flag: ---------

  • Favorite Pinball: Attack From Mars, Metallica, Theatre Of Magic, Shadow, Star Trek

Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:30 AM


- as mentioned by Lio, this is something I have spoken to another member about several days ago, as for me as well, the ball seems to go down a little too fast, like its picking too much speed. My first thought since no one had mentioned it yet is that perhaps something is affecting the physics on my cab. So question here: is it possible my nudging board is affecting the physics?

yes its possibe. unplug it and see if it changes. I find the ball acceleration to be spot on. I would not want to see it slowed down. It is a good match for a real pin (I own 40 if those)

- if I download a table that has physics saved, is there any previous physics setup at my end that can affect this? Ie: I had tried importing physics from white water when I tried that abracadabra conversion. Last two days have been murder with my return to work from sick leave so I am I sure but do I need to enable that option that I think says "import global physics" when I try a downloaded table? Now let's say I am trying another table that has different physics saved within it, do any previous settings affect this? This thought was brought to mind because of how several people have said "full plunge on white water goes straight down the middle" ... Which happens to me, while other people have said this does not happen to them. This to me doesn't make sense, unless the new vp physics are a little like the FP physics, not meant in accuracy but rather that the pc performance can affect the vp physics accuracy from pc to pc (yes for those who don't know, this is true for FP and why some have better physics with FP on one pc compared to another). For the record, my pincab pc is an i7 running at 3.5-3.9ghz with a nvidia 570, so I have power to spare.

Importing a global physics save only impacts tables that select to override those global physics by setting the global physics override in the backdrop section.

- apologies if this was discussed, I am old and memory is bad but is wax taken into affect with the new physics and if not, will it? The reason for asking is obvious: play a game on my firepower, even if set to the same level as one owned by an old friend will play TOTALLY different depending on the wax used and how much. Now, not suggesting this needs to be done but this does need to be factored in when comparing how the physics are accurate for the majority of people out there. Ie: my own present observation of the ball seemingly being too fast could be more of a result of not playing enough real pinball on optimally set up machines. That's another thing I was thinking of, a lot of the videos you have seen are from PAPA vids right Mukuste? Those pins are usually set up for tournament conditions and therefore are set up as "hard". This is perfectly ok, settings are meant to be adjusted. but this may explain why for some, assuming no "global settings" issues are involved, that it may or may not play as they expect, as so many of us are used to playing on beat up pieces of crap. ;)

I would think wax would just decease friction slightly. But when you say the ball moves too fast, maybe you can see when and where and with what settings? Originally, I thought 3500 was the best flipper setting but I realized that makes the ball move too fast. I try to stay around 2400 for modern games, 2800 for stubborn games and less for older games. This is based on physmod2 without the ramp up parameters, which I haven't like too much so far.

Also, some tables mess with the ball speed. A few have had momentum routines running on timers. I've found removing these has helped a lot.

#424 arngrim

arngrim

    DJ Force Feedback

  • VIP
  • 2,188 posts
  • Location:Charleroi, Belgium

  • Flag: Belgium

  • Favorite Pinball: Monster bash



Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:42 AM

I love the new physics so much, but my limited ability to mod tables is stopping me from getting Laser War 1.0.3 FS from working right.  The ball gets plunged way too hard.  I have moved the impulse plunger off to the side and added a new modern flipper, but the ball also plunges waaaaaay to fast.  Maybe friction of the ramps?  Any1 have any ideas.  (one problem of the new physics is that its hard to play the old VP9.2.1 now after seeing how much better it can be.   Many table edits are on the horizon.  Thanks mukuste for all your incredible work!

Slydog,
 
Can you share a table you feel is good? I have not been impressed with what i have tried. No offense Mukuste maybe i'm not doing whatever needs to be done correctly? 


Randr,

Can you elaborate what you don't find accurate to a real pin, since you have some, with the new physics?

#425 ClarkKent

ClarkKent

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,552 posts

  • Flag: Austria

  • Favorite Pinball: Q*Bert's Quest, Red's and Ted's Road Show, Dialed In, Big Bang Bar

Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:36 AM

Mukuste can you please compile the final VP 9.9 Version with the new physics? Just to have the final DX9 version with new physics for adjusting tables...

#426 boiydiego

boiydiego

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Location:baal

  • Flag: Belgium

  • Favorite Pinball: flinstones,t2 chrome edition,wcs,afm,fish tales,medieval,rollercoaster tycoon,taxi

Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:15 AM

i haven't tried the new physics but also whithout the new phsysis the ball in dx9 goes way faster in some table thru the rails etc changing the table slope alone will not change much on the ball speed going thru the rails some tables you cant follow the ball anymore on the top side of table also my girlfriend was seeing the same as me some table where way too fast  , i play much taxi for reference and here i find the difrence is big before i liked the table very much now i dont anymore also apollo13 the ball goes way too fast hoping that i was not alone in seeing the big diffrences in playingspeeds , i liked 9.2.1 there everything was kinda good the dx9 is good for tables that are demanding like monsterbash also good for the multiballs but not for overall balanced playing fun i think.

 

are there more people that see the ball go way too fast thru the rails then before?


Edited by boiydiego, 30 April 2014 - 09:32 AM.

boiydiego___gebruik-n2kbkyc.png


#427 webslinger2203

webslinger2203

    Hobbyist

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 26 posts

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Mideval Madness

Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:45 AM

Mukuste can you please compile the final VP 9.9 Version with the new physics? Just to have the final DX9 version with new physics for adjusting tables...

ClarkKent, the official release came out yesterday. I for one would rather the new physics be implemented in vp10. Plus if I'm reading this forum correctly, the physics are still be tweaked where DX9 is done.

http://www.vpforums....604#entry263874

Edited by webslinger2203, 30 April 2014 - 10:48 AM.


#428 ClarkKent

ClarkKent

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,552 posts

  • Flag: Austria

  • Favorite Pinball: Q*Bert's Quest, Red's and Ted's Road Show, Dialed In, Big Bang Bar

Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:23 AM

 

Mukuste can you please compile the final VP 9.9 Version with the new physics? Just to have the final DX9 version with new physics for adjusting tables...

ClarkKent, the official release came out yesterday. I for one would rather the new physics be implemented in vp10. Plus if I'm reading this forum correctly, the physics are still be tweaked where DX9 is done.

http://www.vpforums....604#entry263874

 

Mukuste said once that as soon as DX9 is released he will compile a separate version with the new physics.



#429 Pinball999

Pinball999

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 828 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: France

  • Favorite Pinball: Star Wars

Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:57 AM

 

I love the new physics so much, but my limited ability to mod tables is stopping me from getting Laser War 1.0.3 FS from working right.  The ball gets plunged way too hard.  I have moved the impulse plunger off to the side and added a new modern flipper, but the ball also plunges waaaaaay to fast.  Maybe friction of the ramps?  Any1 have any ideas.  (one problem of the new physics is that its hard to play the old VP9.2.1 now after seeing how much better it can be.   Many table edits are on the horizon.  Thanks mukuste for all your incredible work!

Slydog,

 

Can you share a table you feel is good? I have not been impressed with what i have tried. No offense Mukuste maybe i'm not doing whatever needs to be done correctly? 

 

 

Same feeling here. I can't get it to work good enough to make it replace my main .exe.

Mostely because sometimes the ball is accelerating too fast when going down on the table. I should try it without my nudge sensor, maybe it's affecting it.



#430 Slydog43

Slydog43

    Pinball Wizard

  • Platinum Supporter
  • 3,008 posts
  • Location:Hackettstown, NJ

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Addams Family, All Williams 90's Games

Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:35 PM

sorry not home now, will upload something tonight.  It does take a little tweaking, but I love the ball handling around the flipppers.  It just seems more realistic with spin and such.  I love doing little tricks with the flippers with real tables and these "tricks" work very well now with the new physics.  



#431 BigBoss

BigBoss

    Pinball Fan

  • VP Dev Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 750 posts

  • Flag: ---------

  • Favorite Pinball: Attack From Mars, Metallica, Theatre Of Magic, Shadow, Star Trek

Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:33 PM

 

 

I love the new physics so much, but my limited ability to mod tables is stopping me from getting Laser War 1.0.3 FS from working right.  The ball gets plunged way too hard.  I have moved the impulse plunger off to the side and added a new modern flipper, but the ball also plunges waaaaaay to fast.  Maybe friction of the ramps?  Any1 have any ideas.  (one problem of the new physics is that its hard to play the old VP9.2.1 now after seeing how much better it can be.   Many table edits are on the horizon.  Thanks mukuste for all your incredible work!

Slydog,

 

Can you share a table you feel is good? I have not been impressed with what i have tried. No offense Mukuste maybe i'm not doing whatever needs to be done correctly? 

 

 

Same feeling here. I can't get it to work good enough to make it replace my main .exe.

Mostely because sometimes the ball is accelerating too fast when going down on the table. I should try it without my nudge sensor, maybe it's affecting it.

 

Maybe it is. Have you tried unplugging it and seeing if it matters? Of the 140 or so tables I've converted so far, I cant imaging going back to the old crappy VP physics. I actually had VP and FP removed from my cabinet and since this engine came out, it's been worth reinstalling and actually playing. What are some tables you find the ball moving too fast? And what are the settings you used on those tables to convert them?



#432 randr

randr

    I'm just a hardware guy so...

  • VIP
  • 2,650 posts
  • Location:Minnesota

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Twilight Zone

Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

I've tried without nudge board and same result. Ball comes down like its in a rubber band. Also ball will bounce off flipper at an exact angle if you hold flipper up to "catch ball" it's to angular or expected when it bounces off flipper. Please big boss provide a table for people to test that will show realistic play as I cannot seem to get it right :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

randr___pinball.png                         


#433 Pinball999

Pinball999

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 828 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: France

  • Favorite Pinball: Star Wars

Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:40 PM

I've tried without nudge board and same result. Ball comes down like its in a rubber band. Also ball will bounce off flipper at an exact angle if you hold flipper up to "catch ball" it's to angular or expected when it bounces off flipper. Please big boss provide a table for people to test that will show realistic play as I cannot seem to get it right :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Or if not the table, at least all settings you have changed in your best table. I'm really curious to test it, since you described the old physics as crappy. :)

Thanks!



#434 sliderpoint

sliderpoint

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 760 posts
  • Location:Spokane, WA

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Metallica

Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:22 PM

I would also be interested in the settings for a table that bigboss has.  I've adjusted a couple to play with, but I have no comparison to a real table to look at right next to it.  I find myself asking the question of "does the real table even do that" (behavior).

 

Using the addams family as a example; on a real table, when the ball kicks out the chair how fast does it come out; when it it hits the left flipper in a down position where does it go and how far, same for the swamp kick out and right flipper.  Same question for flippers being up.   Also one that was interesting is if you launch the ball past the skill shot but not all the way around and let it roll back to the right, past the upper flipper and then have it hit the right flipper in the UP position, my adjustments have the ball bouncing right up into the swamp (lower side), is that even close to accurate, seems probably not.  

 

Anyways, that's why I would also be curious of someones settings who think they are pretty good and close to real behaviors.

 

-Mike 



#435 RYSr

RYSr

    Pinball Fan

  • Charter Member
  • 511 posts
  • Location:Mercerville (Central) NJ, USA

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: TZ - G&R - MB - CV - Metallica

Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:45 PM

So most tables can be converted like this:

 

For DMD era tables:

 


Flippers:

Mass: 1

Strength: 2400

Elasticity 0.9

Friction 0.8

Return Strength 0.1

Position End Angle: 72/288 williams, 70/290 sega/stern/data east <-- starting point for both williams/stern. Might go to 74 for far right ramps and 68 for more powerful backhands

Position End Angle: 68/292 Gottlieb

 

 

@BigBoss

 

On the flipper Position End Angle: 72/288 williams, the 72 = the end angle setting. what parameter does the 288 refer to, the Start angle? Start angle on a few tables I checked is around 120, 288 would be a drastic change??

 

Rich



#436 Pinbotfan

Pinbotfan

    Hobbyist

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Pinbot

Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:01 PM

For me I either have to set the mass of the flippers to like 6 or the strength to >5000 and deal with that. Otherwise when a ball hits a raised flipper it's best described as a 300 pound man jumping from 12 feet onto a diving board and loosing 200 pounds before it springs back up. Its like flipping the ball instead of catching it. It will sometimes go more than half way up a side lane. Some of my flips don't make it that far.

 

A adjustable setting for the power a flipper is held would deal with that. I read it's reduced to 1/3 there and I think to 3/4 would be to much of a reduction. Whatever that variable is is probably what I want and feel I need control of.

 

I think it's generally great though and in good hands.



#437 perplexicon

perplexicon

    Hobbyist

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts

  • Flag: ---------

  • Favorite Pinball: Funhouse

Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:14 PM

Couple of things to be weary of:

* Most recent table releases have some form of momentum/bmpr adjustments for the ball speed in the script, and this really messes with the feel of the new physics. Make sure that's not happening

* The playfield friction in the Backdrop menu needs to be set a lot higher than in 'standard' VP, make sure that is up to at least 0.1 if you're finding the ball if moving too fast!

* Watch out for other scripts in tables that make adjustments for discrepancies in the old physics system!

 

Coil Ramp Up does seem to be a little bit buggy perhaps, or I just have the wrong settings - it seems to occasionally fire the ball back up when landing on a raised flipper in an unrealistic way.

 

It's really hard to quantify what is the "real life correct settings", as I've played two versions of the Addams Family back to back and they handled totally differently. I guess that's analog games for you :)



#438 randr

randr

    I'm just a hardware guy so...

  • VIP
  • 2,650 posts
  • Location:Minnesota

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Twilight Zone

Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:34 PM

Couple of things to be weary of:

* Most recent table releases have some form of momentum/bmpr adjustments for the ball speed in the script, and this really messes with the feel of the new physics. Make sure that's not happening

* The playfield friction in the Backdrop menu needs to be set a lot higher than in 'standard' VP, make sure that is up to at least 0.1 if you're finding the ball if moving too fast!

* Watch out for other scripts in tables that make adjustments for discrepancies in the old physics system!

 

Coil Ramp Up does seem to be a little bit buggy perhaps, or I just have the wrong settings - it seems to occasionally fire the ball back up when landing on a raised flipper in an unrealistic way.

 

It's really hard to quantify what is the "real life correct settings", as I've played two versions of the Addams Family back to back and they handled totally differently. I guess that's analog games for you :)

I agree so please someone when they get time up a table link that works as it should in their opinion with beta physics build. I'm itching to try this but every link in this thread to a table I download gives strange non realistic results for me. The tables I have played with beta build feel more like pinball fx2 or the pinball arcade if that's what its supposed to be like please let me know but i'm thinking that's not how its supposed to feel?


randr___pinball.png                         


#439 sliderpoint

sliderpoint

    Pinball Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 760 posts
  • Location:Spokane, WA

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Metallica

Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:42 PM

It's really hard to quantify what is the "real life correct settings", as I've played two versions of the Addams Family back to back and they handled totally differently. I guess that's analog games for you :)

 

True, I usually like to hit up the local bowling alley to play TAF or T2, but I don't count it as a good comparison as they not maintained very well and I don't think they are very close to what was "intended" by the OEM.



#440 Pinbotfan

Pinbotfan

    Hobbyist

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: Pinbot

Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:03 PM

Couple of things to be weary of:

* Most recent table releases have some form of momentum/bmpr adjustments for the ball speed in the script, and this really messes with the feel of the new physics. Make sure that's not happening

* The playfield friction in the Backdrop menu needs to be set a lot higher than in 'standard' VP, make sure that is up to at least 0.1 if you're finding the ball if moving too fast!

* Watch out for other scripts in tables that make adjustments for discrepancies in the old physics system!

 

Coil Ramp Up does seem to be a little bit buggy perhaps, or I just have the wrong settings - it seems to occasionally fire the ball back up when landing on a raised flipper in an unrealistic way.

 

It's really hard to quantify what is the "real life correct settings", as I've played two versions of the Addams Family back to back and they handled totally differently. I guess that's analog games for you :)

The playfield friction tip put me on track. I feel tweaking could probably get me close to where I want to go now. Thank you.