49 replies to this topic

[The Loafer]

To reiterate my point a little differently. There's no doubt physics can be improved in FP. What I am suggestion to some is, if you find the FP physics that bad, take a different approach to it as less of a simulation and more akin to a more arcadish video game version of pinball. Think Halo vs COD; both FPS games but both feel a heck of a lot different when playing yet still both fun. It matters not to me if you play or do not play any specific tables, but I think some may be missing out on some fun tables and maybe in some cases, a different approach can assist in the enjoyment of them.

Naturally, if realism in a video pinball game is a must then I understand and there is certainly nothing wrong with that! Just consider what I am saying, give it a shot, retrain your mind a bit to the specific physics of said platform and if it's still not fun, then you can say "I tried".

[faralos]

sir I wish i could! FP refuses to run at all on my computer so i can't really say anymore if it still is as 'floaty' as I remember it to be. Last year for some reason it ran on my old computer, this year I have a different computer although the same speed, but it will not even run the editor at all! So, I have to sit this one out...

Edited by faralos, 03 February 2010 - 01:29 AM.

[Dark Cypher]

To reiterate my point a little differently. There's no doubt physics can be improved in FP. What I am suggestion to some is, if you find the FP physics that bad, take a different approach to it as less of a simulation and more akin to a more arcadish video game version of pinball. Think Halo vs COD; both FPS games but both feel a heck of a lot different when playing yet still both fun. It matters not to me if you play or do not play any specific tables, but I think some may be missing out on some fun tables and maybe in some cases, a different approach can assist in the enjoyment of them.

Naturally, if realism in a video pinball game is a must then I understand and there is certainly nothing wrong with that! Just consider what I am saying, give it a shot, retrain your mind a bit to the specific physics of said platform and if it's still not fun, then you can say "I tried".

nicely put Loafer, these are simulations. If I want realism I'll play a real table with real physics. I take pleasure in both applications. Although I don't spend enough time playing real tables I wouldn't really know if one was more realistic then the other apart from the obvious flaws.

I LOVE it when the FP tables balls jump COOOOOOL. That reminds me of a real table. A noisy <CRACK> when the virtual ball hits virtual glass would make it even more special.

But back to my point on realism, for me VP is VP and FP is FP. I see problems in VP when attempting shots just as I have trouble in FP attempting shots, usually I blame my self, sometimes I think "hang on, that didn't look right". In some cases the tables were updated to make a shot easier (more like the physical table). Even real physics has its unrealistic moments. Just the other day I was playing TRW (The Real World) Judge Dreadd. One of the balls got caught on the the top of the right inlane it was just sitting there at the top, like balancing I think the rubber was a bit off or something was bent, maybe it was the force?. It was like some sort of logic error. I was like what the hell, and I thought hey don't nudge it, wait. An sure enough after a few seconds the ball lost cycle started and the table spat out another ball FREE 2X MULTIBALL!!!!!. If I saw that on a digital version I'd think, fake!

In the end I agree with the examples given by each of the posters. I too see these differences in FP as well as others I wont meition in VP, but I thanks god I'm not back in 1990 playing pinball fantasies/illusions and that VP has rom emulation and that in FP i can zoom in on manual camera mode to see the close up details of the table. Some times I just fly around the screen for hours just looking at every screw and drop target. Good times.

Keep on Flippering what ever your affliction.

DC

[destruk]

Some times I just fly around the screen for hours just looking at every screw and drop target.

Well that's something I've never done for hours. You can look at the textures in image manager and the model manager, which would be enough for me - and saves a lot of time. There used to be some interactive VRML web pages online if you like moving cameras in virtual worlds.
Download this plugin:
http://www.cortona3d...Viewer/win.html

Then you'll be set to view everything in the vrml museum. http://www.toucan.co...VRMLFrameE.html

[Steve Paradis]

That reminds me of a real table. A noisy <CRACK> when the virtual ball hits virtual glass would make it even more special.

this is not really hard to do, a transparent surface covering the entire playfield and acting as a giant trigger would do the trick.
then you map to this event an audio sample of an Arcade manager saying : " <CRACK> Hey! carefull with my stuff kid..."
Steve

Edited by Steve Paradis, 03 February 2010 - 02:45 PM.

[Mr. Pacman]

That reminds me of a real table. A noisy <CRACK> when the virtual ball hits virtual glass would make it even more special.

this is not really hard to do, a transparent surface covering the entire playfield and acting as a giant trigger would do the trick.
then you map to this event an audio sample of an Arcade manager saying : " <CRACK> Hey! carefull with my stuff kid..."
Steve

[ClickerSnapper]

My 4 cents ( due to inflation )

If nothing is ever said...then nothing will ever be heard.

Hopefully FP/VP are just in the infant stages and will grow to full maturity.

IMO
Both are evolving into shere pleasure and enjoyment! (I got up 1 morning and left all my other games for FP/VP) 3mo. now. (I'm glad too!)
I look for the day and (please correct me if I'm mistaking or have come to the wrong conclusion).
When VP has Multi Core coding support and If from what I have read
VP is a 2D app and Invidia has stated in there helps that Acceleration from the video adaptor
is not possible for 2D apps. ( other than the shere speed of the system ).
Here is what they had me do which I thought was very interesting... Reason ( The Flintones and a few other tables played choppy when Multi Ball and heavy sound and lights were energized at once) so I called support since my NEW card was a GTS250 (overkill for VP) and I wanted to be sure not defective.

change your windows enviroment to 2D support and only 16bit and FP will error out
and it will post the message on screen that FP failed to start because of NO
32bit 3D acceleration is not enabled on this system and is required to run!
Now the only error you get for VP when changed to this enviroment is
that VP runs of course 2D, but the tables that call for rendering and offer 32bit
color may not ( and most do not...I tried ) display properly the the ones that did ran great!.

It was suggested to change processor affinity and priority for VP...so I did and ran on 1 processor core and in real time. Performance was neglable.
Now I understand why and so do the ones that asked why the nvidia6800gt and the 9500gt ran VP so well in a uvp setup but lacked in performance running FP.
I did all this on XPpro SP3 182.50 drivers. The most ram ever used by VP was a little under 500meg.
FP just demanded more from the video adaptor due 2 being 32bit acclerated.

One last comment and then I'm through on this:
If you coders for the VP.exe find any or all of this in error
Please, post corrections/additions and we all will gain correct info and understanding.
But I'm not waiting! I'm getting into the action now!! ( we love it and can't get enough of it! )
And I will tell you how much...I'm not a coder in the full sence but I have learned what to do ( for the most part to get a table to run )
But I would be willing to pay to have a couple or so FS-UVP tables made for us... that I would like to see in the collection.
( I think this is legal is it not )
Harley Davidson and T3 FS-UVP just to start.

Whew...that is all for now...
Later,
Pinheads. ( in the good sence of the word )

Clicker Out.

[megamike36]

About physics and comparing:
There are 2 versions of "Time Warp" in VP and 2 Versions in FP. All 4 have a different touch and feel and ball action.
It's just like aon the real table. You can't always take the ball exactly where you want it to go. Even if you have 2 real tables, the act a bit different. That's why i like both VP and FP. They are the same but different. Let's call it the "Analog-Factor" in the digital world.

Mike

[Pinbotic]

After some fiddling around with the flipper settings, I have found that the following settings will give them a more "real" feel and making aiming shots much easier.
Start Angle: 118
Swing: -53
Strength: Default + 1
Elasticity: Hard

Changing the start angle to make it even lower gives even better results, but then visually the flippers look strange. I find that the physics in FP do lack in comparison to VP, but the table author does have a big factor on how the game plays.

[destruk]

Pinbotic - a few real table owners have attested countless times that the flipper sweep angle is 53 degrees, and the start position for most main flippers is 120 and 240 degrees, meaning 120-67, and 240-293. While flipper angles, speed, oblique correction, power law, angles, elasticity et all - are all personalized settings, and can have variance between machines, any recommendations are to be considered with a grain of salt. The physics engine is designed with these settings in mind for a more realistic feel to a basic pinball machine. This still doesn't mean they are 100% accurate. If you prefer your setting, that s great, however nothing is set in stone s the idealistic setting recommendation. Some shots, although 'easier' might still not be accurate, and it is quite difficult to even approach a relative approximation to how the real game plays. All I can suggest is keep the values that have been confirmed beyond any doubt - such as the flipper length of 120 vp units and sweep of 53 degrees, with a start angle that matches the flyer or photo of the machine, and teak out the other fields for what you think plays best at the time. When/if the other physics issues are worked out, it should be easier to tweak given solid frame of reference to start from.

I read that a few times and I think I did pretty good for a thoroughly inebriated guy like myself at this juncture. Thanks.

After some fiddling around with the flipper settings, I have found that the following settings will give them a more "real" feel and making aiming shots much easier.
Start Angle: 118
Swing: -53
Strength: Default + 1
Elasticity: Hard

Changing the start angle to make it even lower gives even better results, but then visually the flippers look strange. I find that the physics in FP do lack in comparison to VP, but the table author does have a big factor on how the game plays.

[Popotte]

After some fiddling around with the flipper settings, I have found that the following settings will give them a more "real" feel and making aiming shots much easier.
Start Angle: 118
Swing: -53
Strength: Default + 1
Elasticity: Hard

Changing the start angle to make it even lower gives even better results, but then visually the flippers look strange. I find that the physics in FP do lack in comparison to VP, but the table author does have a big factor on how the game plays.

The problem it's physic depends of the choosen model... The T1 model is the best (or the less worse, as you want). For originals, I deeply recommand this model. For recreation, it's an other story as you have not the choice (a Gottlieb table with Williams flippers would be a little bit strange, isn't it?).
The default values are really near yours:
Start Angle: 120
Swing: -52
Strength: Default
Elasticity: Hard

[PainkillerAlice]

Just imagine if FP had great physics, VP would almost be dead in the water. The PinMAME support would be the only thing keeping it alive.

[destruk]

Just imagine if FP had great physics, VP would almost be dead in the water. The PinMAME support would be the only thing keeping it alive.

For you, perhaps. As far as the interface goes, I kind of like being able to click an object name from a list to instantly know where it is on the table, as well as a few other ease of use points VP has had that FP just can't compete with. And of course, VP has 10 times as many games available to play for it than Future Pinball does, 8 times as many original games as the entire future pinball production library - maybe you should open your eyes beyond pinmame and check out the amazingly good creations over the years for VP.

[Wizards_Hat]

As far as the interface goes, I kind of like being able to click an object name from a list to instantly know where it is on the table,

Talking of which...is there anyway to select an object name from the list by the select arrow when there are more objects listed than will fit on the screen?

I know it's not a massive problem, but as an example, I was trying to help another member with the scripting for their table the other day, and it took me ages to find a particular wall because they had hundreds of ramps etc, and the list only went as far a "R" on the screen.

Cheers,
Dan.

[PainkillerAlice]

Just imagine if FP had great physics, VP would almost be dead in the water. The PinMAME support would be the only thing keeping it alive.

For you, perhaps. As far as the interface goes, I kind of like being able to click an object name from a list to instantly know where it is on the table, as well as a few other ease of use points VP has had that FP just can't compete with. And of course, VP has 10 times as many games available to play for it than Future Pinball does, 8 times as many original games as the entire future pinball production library - maybe you should open your eyes beyond pinmame and check out the amazingly good creations over the years for VP.

I had forgot about the ease of use points with VP vs FP. I had tried to create an FP table once and now remember the many headaches and migraines I got from trying to get the mouse to precisely hit a point on FP. Gave up on creating in FP after that whole nightmare.

[destruk]

As far as the interface goes, I kind of like being able to click an object name from a list to instantly know where it is on the table,

Talking of which...is there anyway to select an object name from the list by the select arrow when there are more objects listed than will fit on the screen?

I know it's not a massive problem, but as an example, I was trying to help another member with the scripting for their table the other day, and it took me ages to find a particular wall because they had hundreds of ramps etc, and the list only went as far a "R" on the screen.

Cheers,
Dan.

Yeah Dan, you can select an object from the top left dropdown list in the script editor, or you can create a collection and put the objects you want into the collection, with a name that begins with an A so it shows up at the top of the list.

[Wizards_Hat]

Yeah Dan, you can select an object from the top left dropdown list in the script editor, or you can create a collection and put the objects you want into the collection, with a name that begins with an A so it shows up at the top of the list.

Aha! A simple solution - thanks for that

Regards,
Dan.

[megamike36]

As far as the interface goes, I kind of like being able to click an object name from a list to instantly know where it is on the table,

Talking of which...is there anyway to select an object name from the list by the select arrow when there are more objects listed than will fit on the screen?

I know it's not a massive problem, but as an example, I was trying to help another member with the scripting for their table the other day, and it took me ages to find a particular wall because they had hundreds of ramps etc, and the list only went as far a "R" on the screen.

Cheers,
Dan.

Yo! Right you are!
Like i said before. Both have their Yea's abd Boo's

Mike

[SHIFTHOLDER68321]

I would like if FP runs with PhysX. That would be the best.

[light66]

While i was programming on my FP scripteditor i stumpled upon a possibility to actually change the physics behavior in Future Pinball.
It works, but note that i wrote "change" and not "improve" as it will require quite a bit of knowledge to Newton.
And even then it's possible that it can't be any better with Newton.

Furthermore, it's a hack, so i don't know how the mods feel about posting it?

It should also be possible to fix the DMD shader to render correctly on ATI cards. At least i think so

light