73 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

if you mean the VPM DMD display?

 

If table is an actual DMD table, hit F1 and uncheck show vpm display
check use external DLL, and display them via freezys

much better appearance

[Tesla]

1. if you mean the VPM DMD display?

 

2. If table is an actual DMD table, hit F1 and uncheck show vpm display

 

3. check use external DLL, and display them via freezys

much better appearance

 

1. Yeah

 

2. Yes, F1 fixed it. I'm such a newbie

 

3. After I get some more tables installed, I'm going to circle-back and try this on a few.

 

Thanks again for all your help getting me going.

[wiesshund]

if you want some colorized DMD's

 

when you are in F1, check to colorize, and check use external DLL

 

These are the DMD's i have color for (entire alt color folder zipped)

https://drive.google...?usp=share_link

 

If stern ROM though, you still have to color patch the ROM itself, Stern's dont use an external VNI file
on those you'd have to tell me what ROM, and i'll see if i still have the patches

[Tesla]

 

 

 

 

However, it seems some of those other Camera settings there are making it too narrow, and "over-scanned" off the monitor at the top and bottom. Is this indeed where we fix that, and are there some common fixes here to make the Playfield look more normal on a cabinet?

 

 

Personal recommendation 
in the editor in the backglass view

with test desktop UNCHECKED
 

I know some people will tell you to do different, but i think you will be happier if you at least start out this way.
Stretching on X or Y scale does exactly that, and in turn stretches all the graphics
circles become ovals, balls become eggs etc.

 

 

Well, first ... this is exactly what I needed to know on the subject.

Let me study it and try it first ... so I can ask some intelligent questions (if I even have any)

 

One question now though ... What is "Test Desktop" used for and why would I ever want it On?

 

Yeah, I hate things shown at the wrong aspect-ratio. Like if I only had a 4:3 Backglass, I'd prefer back-bars on the sides over a full-screen stretch.

 

Same with TV-shows or whatever. I would even accept a slight crop at top and bottom (or some call it zooming-in) to keep it in aspect. I'm not sure yet, but I get the feeling that is what I'm going to end-up doing to some of these tables (to minimize the blank side-bars) but concurrently keep them in the proper (undistorted) aspect-ratio.

if you want some colorized DMD's

 

when you are in F1, check to colorize, and check use external DLL

 

These are the DMD's i have color for (entire alt color folder zipped)

https://drive.google...?usp=share_link

 

If stern ROM though, you still have to color patch the ROM itself, Stern's dont use an external VNI file
on those you'd have to tell me what ROM, and i'll see if i still have the patches

 

I downloaded it for later, thanks.

[Tesla]

Does Apollo-13 have full sound ?

 

Right now, I mostly just hear the flippers, bumpers, ball-rolling, etc. 

 

If it has music or talking, let's please start with obvious stuff. I might just have something turned-down and not know it. 

 

For reference, Last Action Hero seems to have full-audio.

[wiesshund]

Does Apollo-13 have full sound ?

 

Right now, I mostly just hear the flippers, bumpers, ball-rolling, etc. 

 

If it has music or talking, let's please start with obvious stuff. I might just have something turned-down and not know it. 

 

For reference, Last Action Hero seems to have full-audio.

it has sound, try keys 8 and 9 to adjust volume

[Tesla]

 

Does Apollo-13 have full sound ?

 

Right now, I mostly just hear the flippers, bumpers, ball-rolling, etc. 

 

If it has music or talking, let's please start with obvious stuff. I might just have something turned-down and not know it. 

 

For reference, Last Action Hero seems to have full-audio.

it has sound, try keys 8 and 9 to adjust volume

 

 

That is the "Red and Green Buttons" for the rom's special system.

Seems I had to press END first. On the DMD, it say's it's adjusting volume, but doesn't help make it louder.

 

I can barely hear them talking about the mission sometimes, but it is very low.

 

I found F2, but interesting how 8,9 volume keys and other keys are missing.

Edited by Tesla, 19 February 2023 - 02:07 AM.

[Tesla]

 

 

 

 

However, it seems some of those other Camera settings there are making it too narrow, and "over-scanned" off the monitor at the top and bottom. Is this indeed where we fix that, and are there some common fixes here to make the Playfield look more normal on a cabinet?

 

 

Personal recommendation 
in the editor in the backglass view

with test desktop UNCHECKED
and FS view selected (you are using a cab yes?)
set X Y and Z scale to 1 (in fact NEVER EVER change Z Scale from 1)
 

Use Z OFFSET to zoom in or out of table

 

And just FYI, stretching on the Z scale physically rips the table apart or crushes it flat, and it is a physical change, not just visual, hence NEVR EVER do it.
 

 

 

For Last Action Hero, how does this look?

 

To keep all scales at 1, and only use Z-Offset for zoom, takes a large negative number.

 

I still have about 1.5-inches of blank-space on each-side of my playfield (I would be happy to zoom-in more). 

 

http://vpforums.org/...lah-better1.png

Edited by Tesla, 19 February 2023 - 02:19 AM.

[wiesshund]

You really need to use F6 once you have it roughed in, and adjust in real-time

 

Also, do you have a portrait mode playfield?
If not, why no rotation in your full screen FOV?

 

And yes negative Z offset means camera closer to table

[Tesla]

 

Does Apollo-13 have full sound ?

 

Right now, I mostly just hear the flippers, bumpers, ball-rolling, etc. 

 

If it has music or talking, let's please start with obvious stuff. I might just have something turned-down and not know it. 

 

For reference, Last Action Hero seems to have full-audio.

it has sound, try keys 8 and 9 to adjust volume

 

 

Ok, I got it barely working/sounding.

 

I had to turn-up table to 25 and Windows to 80 to be able to hear it (both almost to max).

 

So now, I can hear talking/music in Apollo-13 (but it's still pretty low), and flippers/ball-rolling is very loud.

Doesn't seem quite-right. 

 

I tried changing both Sound options in editor options from Primary Audio Device to the named one, but it made no difference.

 

It should be noted that Apollo-13 flippers (and other similar table-items) sounded fine at table=5/40=Windows.

Also LAH sounded fine (flippers and music) at table=5/40=Windows.

 

EDIT: Oh, also ... In Windows-10/Control-Panel/Sound all my Audio devices are disabled (except for the one that is HDMI-Audio for my cabinet). Been that way for a while now. A little trick I picked-up from my Kodi installs.

Edited by Tesla, 19 February 2023 - 04:41 AM.

[Tesla]

1. You really need to use F6 once you have it roughed in, and adjust in real-time

 

2. Also, do you have a portrait mode playfield?
If not, why no rotation in your full screen FOV?

 

3. And yes negative Z offset means camera closer to table

 

1. I'm hearing you, it's just that it looks fine to me except for the blank sides.

 

As long as those numbers look about right, I'm happy. I do wish I knew what the top 3-4 mean or really do (other than distort the view in various ways for a fake perspective).

 

2. Yes, it's an AtGames Legends Pinball cabinet running in OTG-Mode. I also run my Windows-10 in Portrait. 0 is correct because any other number (incorrectly) rotates it. That number is not an issue.

 

3. Gotcha. I'm following your instructions, but to do do, I'm ending-up with a Z-Offset around -1000. As long as that looks right to you, I'm fine.

 

However, Scale X and Y at 1.1 seems to really help (I confess, I temporarily tried it) . If that was to be allowed, would Scale Z be 1.1 also (so it matches the others), or must it still stay at 1.0 ? 

 

Glad you are on tonight. I was wondering where my personal VPX helper was 

[wiesshund]

Just how that table is
I have the ROM at 30

Table sounds overpower the ROM

never did bother to try adjusting them any

 

Line 1817

try

PlaySound("fx_ballrolling" & b), -1, Vol(BOT(b))*0.2, AudioPan(BOT(b) ), 0, Pitch(BOT(b) ), 1, 0, AudioFade(BOT(b) )

keep decreasing 0.2 until you are happy with it, if you wind up at 0.05 just roll with it LOL
other sounds, bumpers etc, you can adjust in sound manager

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

1. I'm hearing you, it's just that it looks fine to me except for the blank sides.

 

As long as those numbers look about right, I'm happy. I do wish I knew what the top 3-4 mean or really do (other than distort the view in various ways for a fake perspective).

 

 

 

 

You're kind of not hearing though
the editor window doesnt really know jack about the actual screen
it will only get you in the ballpark
You have to adjust with F6 in real time

 

 

 

3. Gotcha. I'm following your instructions, but to do do, I'm ending-up with a Z-Offset around -1000. As long as that looks right to you, I'm fine.

 

However, Scale X and Y at 1.1 seems to really help (I confess, I temporarily tried it) . If that was to be allowed, would Scale Z be 1.1 also (so it matches the others), or must it still stay at 1.0 ? 

 

 

 

does not matter what the Z offset says, the number means nothing other than 1000 units below an abitrary spot in 3d space
the number is unimportant, it is what the screen shows (which you cant actually see unless you adjust it in F6 mode) that matters
Z Offset will vary depending on actual size of table

If i make a table that is 5000 vpx units long, you will be moving the z offset the other way to fit it in your screen.

 

dont do X and Y scale, even if you move them identical amounts
It Stretches
The camera doesnt move closer, which is what you want.

Stretching is like taking a 640x480 image and stretching it to 1025x768
which of course makes the image get more pixely, the more you stretch.
 

Z offset moves the camera physically closer to the table, meaning 0 loss of detail
Not to mention, screen wise it accomplishes the same thing as setting X and Y offset to something like 2, which out wrecking the graphics.

 

GO take a table with good 4k graphics
go in F6 mode

Z offset your face 2 inches off the table, observe 0 loss of graphics quality

 

Now go stretch X and Y offset to get what looks like same size
and look what just happened to the image quality.

 

DO NOT EVER EVER Change Z Scale to be anything but 1
NEVER
It isnt visual it is physical, it will break the table

It is the equivalent putting the table in a press and smashing it together, or doing the opposite and ripping the table apart vertically.
It is a setting that should not even be available.

 

 

Edited by wiesshund, 19 February 2023 - 04:58 AM.

[Tesla]

1. Just how that table is
2. I have the ROM at 30

3. Table sounds overpower the ROM

never did bother to try adjusting them any

 

4. Line 1817

try

PlaySound("fx_ballrolling" & b), -1, Vol(BOT(b))*0.2, AudioPan(BOT(b) ), 0, Pitch(BOT(b) ), 1, 0, AudioFade(BOT(b) )

keep decreasing 0.2 until you are happy with it, if you wind up at 0.05 just roll with it LOL

 

5. other sounds, bumpers etc, you can adjust in sound manager

 

1. Hmm. Do you think it might be related to the uniqueness of the WhiteStar board emulation?

 

2. Cool, thanks for verifying that.

 

3. I would like them to be more balanced

 

4. Actually, I don't mind the ball-rolling sound too much (actually, I think it's pretty cool). But it's that easy, huh?

 

5. I found an option to (I think) globally decrease all table-effects (70) without affecting the music (100). At Editor/Table/User/(down at bottom) . Seems to be just for this table (as desired). Yes, also saw Sound Manger but I was hoping not to have to locate all the different sounds and learn how that works.

[Tesla]

 

1. You have to adjust with F6 in real time

 

2. don't do X and Y scale, even if you move them identical amounts

 

3. DO NOT EVER EVER Change Z Scale to be anything but 1. NEVER

It is a setting that should not even be available.

 

4. Z offset moves the camera physically closer to the table, meaning 0 loss of detail

 

 

1. OK, I will try.

 

2. Understood

 

3. Understood

 

4. Yes, seems to work ... except I ended up at -2100 . If the ball finally went slightly egg-like (when down by the flippers), it's just my imagination, right ?

 

I'm down to about just 0.75 inch margin on both sides. Would it be hard to change the blank-side-margin from light-gray to Black (like they are on LAH).

[wiesshund]

4) if X and Y scale at 1, you have less risk of ball egging out

Less, not entirely 100% guaranteed.
Your layback and inclination can induce a bit of distortion, but VPX has a correction for that
in video settings

This does tend to happen in portrait oriented screens more i think

 

Firstly, you can enable CABINET ANTI STRETCH THE BALL
then after testing the results of that, if it still does not quite do the job
below that you have an X and Y offset

 

I dont remember if portrait mode reverses those, but try setting the Y offset to 1.5
you may need to experiment some to see what number works best.

 

When you say you are down to .75 margin on both sides i assume this means you ran out of top / bottom room already

To turn the grey to black
In editor, click the backglass icon
Set background color to pure black
Hue 160
Sat 0
Lum 0
Red 0
Blue 0
Green 0

 

Anything not pure black will look some shade of grey

or if an actual color, will look like a color

[Tesla]

I do wish I knew what the top 3-4 mean or really do (other than distort the view in various ways for a fake perspective).

 

 

 

 

Well, I found this for definitions of Inclination, Field of View, and Layback. 

 

http://mjrnet.org/pi...?sid=tableFixup

 

All the rest are fairly obvious to me. It is interesting to note that his "take" on Scale is different than yours @Wiesshund . Not saying either is wrong, and I certainly don't have a concrete opinion myself (with my limited VP experience). Like you first posted, "This is my Personal recommendation and I know some people will tell you to do differently". Your detailed examples and explanations of why Scale X,Y, and Z should all be 1 are certainly compelling. 

 

I also noticed he skipped the definition for Z-Offset (which is really the only other contentious one) and even Z-Scale. 

Edited by Tesla, 19 February 2023 - 07:03 PM.

[wiesshund]

inclination is tilting the table along the centerline
layback if moving the POV forward or backwards

 

0 inclination makes a table look dead flat, which makes it feel 2d
In real life you see a table in perspective, seems skinnier at rear

if you want it to seem lifelike, you should have a little inclination, and a little perspective
which lets you see the table from a more natural angle

 

layback is basically, where is your head?
Are you standing behind the machine?
are you lurching over the top of the machine so far that the flippers are technically beind you?

 

FOV is the width of the camera lens (like a wide angle lens?)
17 degrees for cab mode tends to feel the most natural
around 45 degrees for desktop mode

No need for a wide FOV in cab mode, since what you are looking at is narrow

[Tesla]

4) if X and Y scale at 1, you have less risk of ball egging out

Less, not entirely 100% guaranteed.
Your layback and inclination can induce a bit of distortion, but VPX has a correction for that
in video settings

This does tend to happen in portrait oriented screens more i think

 

1. Firstly, you can enable CABINET ANTI STRETCH THE BALL
then after testing the results of that,

 

2. if it still does not quite do the job
below that you have an X and Y offset

 

 

1. In my config, this seems to be the worst as it looks like a basketball with very-little air inside.

 

Don't Stretch seems to be a little better than the default (Stretch with table). Might just stop there.

 

Ball-roundness seems to be worse on Apollo-13 than LAH, for some reason.

 

It should also be noted that (following your directions) all the round table-elements on BOTH tables are perfectly round (ie, in the correct aspect-ratio)

 

2. Haven't tried yet.

Edited by Tesla, 20 February 2023 - 05:37 AM.

[Tesla]

 

1. When you say you are down to .75 margin on both sides i assume this means you ran out of top / bottom room already

2. To turn the grey to black
In editor, click the backglass icon
Set background color to pure black
Hue 160
Sat 0
Lum 0
Red 0
Blue 0
Green 0

 

Anything not pure black will look some shade of grey

or if an actual color, will look like a color

 

1. Correct.

 

2. Yeah, I saw that the other day, but that is already set to a very dark-shade of black.

Somehow, I think the light-gray is coming from somewhere else.

 

http://vpforums.org/...o13-margins.jpg