35 replies to this topic

[jino0372]

Here is my point of view...in case any one cares.  

 

I download a table, B2S, etc.  I believe I can make it better.  If the person that posted it says it is free to mod....then I would go to town and make it better and share it with the community.  When sharing I would give credit to the previous poster and anyone that poster gave credit to.  It's just polite.

 

If the content posted has "ask before modding"...then I would ask.  I would still make the changes I want either way.  It's really about the sharing with the community part.  If the previous poster approves...then same as above.  Share with community and credit previous poster and anyone that poster gave credit to.

 

If the poster doesn't approve....all is not lost.  At this point...I have my mod...I just don't share it with the community.  If I was hell bent of sharing my wonderful modifications....well...most tables go back through multiple changes.  So look at the table prior to the last change.  Heck....some tables have multiple releases.  Look who created it and ask them for permission to mod their table and start with their work instead.  It maybe more work on your end but...you still get there in the end.  Once again...this is about sharing with the community...not modding a tables.  Anybody can mod any table at any time without permission.  I have a bunch of table mods in my collection.  It when these are shared...it's about being respectful to the previous work done.

 

Also, I believe JP mentioned this....I believe you should give the person who's work you are modding the opportunity to make the changes themselves and post it if they want and let them credit you.  If they don't care...then it's once again it's free game.

 

As far as someone's table who abandoned the community goes.  This is my point of view.  If I don't have their permission...I just mod the table and keep it to myself.  I don't see the need for self glory.

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

If you want to mod my mod, you have to ask me for permission first. If you want to work from ICP's version - please ask him for permission just like I did.

 

 

 

 

Not picking a personal beef with you but i have to disagree with this concept

 

If i make A and you mod it (and hopefully you made it lots better than mine )
You may NEVER EVER over ride my permission to let others mod it
If you add to it, and they work from that, that is simply the risk you take, but my original grant of permission trumps any future conditions you may wish to apply forever and always.

 

That being said, they need to credit you fully for what ever work you did, and not remove your notes/comments etc.

I dont care if they 100% removed all your work and replaced it all, they did start with your rendition of the table, so your part in the life of the table still needs to be known.

 

 

I may not care for how a particular person mods something, but that's ok, i am sure there are at least 5000 people that dont like how i did it in the 1st place
Hell i do not think have have a single table that i have not changed at least something on (Though if i was smart, i'd change them to be easier so i didnt suck as much)

And it isnt cause the author didnt do a good job, just that there was something i wanted a bit different.

[Shockman]

Look, I know better than anyone how shit works and it isn't as straightforward as you so tritely put it. Someone gets a bug up their arse about something unrelated to me and then wants to change their mind, or just plain forgets, or won't respond even though they're active or a whole bunch of other time wasting pursuits. Sometimes they say no because they don't like the website and then allow someone else from another site. More than anything, you get crickets.

By your definition, practically everybody is a modder and shouldn't be entitled to dictate permissions as they're not the author. Permissions on mods should probably be inherited from the original author. No is fine and Yes obviously, it's the Yes, with approval that stutters. That's where issues other than pinball come into play.

I usually avoid people that think they know better that anyone. Unless that is what I'm looking for. This post came after a post that complained about the site guidelines on the matter being broken. This post is all about personal conflict. I would not say the guidelines are broken. I would say they are being broken.

Edited by Shockman, 14 May 2021 - 10:55 PM.

[xenonph]

What it comes down to is "modders" need to use other peoples work, because they can't build their own VP table from scratch.

If you don't want to have to ask for permission to mod, build your own table and you won't have to ask permission to mod.

Otherwise every person who has worked on that table needs to be acknowledged for their work.

I also think leaving a link to the original table on your mods download page, helps others know exactly who's table you have modded.

If that seems unreasonable or unfair, then build your own table from scratch.

[chepas]

The founding concept here is to all work together to preserve pinball through software simulation and

VP history in general. It's evolved into something much more 'cliquey' and scattered into clubs of 'exclusivity'.

 

(Going slight off topic, raised good point) Indeed that is case and most of that was spawned from not liking the rules here or personal beef. 

 

People do want to have a choice though, so I can't blame anyone for wanting to pick where they upload, but having all the segregation and only benefits the end user (the downloader).

 

I used to think if there wasn't as much segregation and `my mum's better than your mum` then you would get more teams of authors / modders working together, lessening the load and anyone from any skill set able to contribute to a game.

[Shockman]

What it comes down to is "modders" need to use other peoples work, because they can't build their own VP table from scratch.

If you don't want to have to ask for permission to mod, build your own table and you won't have to ask permission to mod.

Otherwise every person who has worked on that table needs to be acknowledged for their work.

I also think leaving a link to the original table on your mods download page, helps others know exactly who's table you have modded.

If that seems unreasonable or unfair, then build your own table from scratch.

- I don't mod tables for release but if I did it would not be for that reason. It would to be more like producing a designer hubcap without reinventing a wheel. If I was not granted the mod I would still do the mod, just not post it.

- Permission is not needed to mod a table. Permission is required to post the mod here. Modding is often R/D to that very end.

- Every person that wills acknowledgement for work on the previous version should have it. I agree.

- A respectful gesture.

- Or be happy you have a version you like better, even if you think others are missing out. Or offer your input to the originator and no bother with a mod. You know they don't have the knowledge to start from scratch as stated on this line, or at least you don't think they can, as stated on the first line.

[bigus1]

Thanks for the replies. I really have no problem asking for or gaining permissions and crediting. The response I get from authors is overwhelmingly positive. The issue I have is whether I'm ever entitled to a say on how a table is shared. Does my work count for anything? Does a modder gain any privileges at all? It seems most people circumvent that issue by simply not calling it a mod. That doesn't sit well with me. I'm painted as someone that doesn't want to follow the rules but it's quite the opposite.

I'm trying to understand the fairness of having permissions revoked on tables that I have had published for a year with multiple updates, due to reasons totally unrelated to me or the table. I don't care about labels, but it seems that modding is seen as frivolous compared to authoring and that modders are some sub-class forever subservient to those who consider themselves authors. I don't want to own anything, and I certainly wouldn't reinvent the wheel just so I can say it's mine. I just feel that my work should maybe earn some consideration in the future course of the table. I don't think the idea of having people hand all their work over to the anointed author would ever encourage new talent. It's fair enough that some people want recognition beyond a line in the credits.

[Wylte]

The issue I have is whether I'm ever entitled to a say on how a table is shared. Does my work count for anything? Does a modder gain any privileges at all? It seems most people circumvent that issue by simply not calling it a mod. That doesn't sit well with me. I'm painted as someone that doesn't want to follow the rules but it's quite the opposite.

My opinion:  you get the same rights to your mods as any author.  If someone wants to build on your work, they should contact you first.  If you say yes but you don't have carte blanche permission to the table, you then redirect them to the author you got permission from.  If that original author is straight up gone (best judgement, there) then you can consider the modded table yours fully.
 
In my case I jumped the gun a bit thinking I was good, then HauntFreaks reappeared (and was cool with it), then SliderPoint returned and responded that there was actually a rights issue with the CARtoons publication.  He allowed me to keep my mod published, but with absolutely no modding allowed.  So even though I'm personally cool with my work being forked, that one is off-limits.  In the future, I'll be sticking to a 30 days window for a "disappeared" author to respond.
 

I'm trying to understand the fairness of having permissions revoked on tables that I have had published for a year with multiple updates, due to reasons totally unrelated to me or the table.

Opinion again, but nah.  If you're given clear permissions to mod something and post it, and you've gone and done that, then that's that.  That mod is yours.  The prior author/s can't just come back and restrict those terms or claim ownership over what's yours now.
 

Edited by Wylte, 15 May 2021 - 08:11 AM.

[remdwaas1986]

Thanks for the replies. I really have no problem asking for or gaining permissions and crediting. The response I get from authors is overwhelmingly positive. The issue I have is whether I'm ever entitled to a say on how a table is shared. Does my work count for anything? Does a modder gain any privileges at all? It seems most people circumvent that issue by simply not calling it a mod. That doesn't sit well with me. I'm painted as someone that doesn't want to follow the rules but it's quite the opposite.
I'm trying to understand the fairness of having permissions revoked on tables that I have had published for a year with multiple updates, due to reasons totally unrelated to me or the table. I don't care about labels, but it seems that modding is seen as frivolous compared to authoring and that modders are some sub-class forever subservient to those who consider themselves authors. I don't want to own anything, and I certainly wouldn't reinvent the wheel just so I can say it's mine. I just feel that my work should maybe earn some consideration in the future course of the table. I don't think the idea of having people hand all their work over to the anointed author would ever encourage new talent. It's fair enough that some people want recognition beyond a line in the credits.

Ivantba took my doraemon table and made an awsome double dragon table of it. He add me as author because i made the table. Even he made a totally a diffrent theme. I think that shows only respect.

My opinion is if you do the lights on a table do upgrades on graphic/ gameplay just give the table back to the author and let him upload it. And let him give you credits to name the update to your name. Because bigus you do awsome work.

If you are doing a mod with a whole diffrent theme add the author to the table, but you upload it as your table.

Can you use a table without asking permission, then you are the owner(you still can give them credits)

Still having issues with recreate a table. But i think if you create it from scratch then you are the author and give the other persons credits or thanks. I think i will also do this with escape from monkey island.

But like i said before ask permissions first from the creators it's only out of respect. Even if i share artwork i ask permission first. From a couple of people i cannot share some artwork so i don't do that, just out of respect.

But i also think a bit as you bigus, just don't want to make people angry or disappointed. I just want to enjoy this hobby and create awsome tables that are not build yet/ finished.

[Shockman]

Thanks for the replies. I really have no problem asking for or gaining permissions and crediting. The response I get from authors is overwhelmingly positive. The issue I have is whether I'm ever entitled to a say on how a table is shared. Does my work count for anything? Does a modder gain any privileges at all? It seems most people circumvent that issue by simply not calling it a mod. That doesn't sit well with me. I'm painted as someone that doesn't want to follow the rules but it's quite the opposite.

I'm trying to understand the fairness of having permissions revoked on tables that I have had published for a year with multiple updates, due to reasons totally unrelated to me or the table. I don't care about labels, but it seems that modding is seen as frivolous compared to authoring and that modders are some sub-class forever subservient to those who consider themselves authors. I don't want to own anything, and I certainly wouldn't reinvent the wheel just so I can say it's mine. I just feel that my work should maybe earn some consideration in the future course of the table. I don't think the idea of having people hand all their work over to the anointed author would ever encourage new talent. It's fair enough that some people want recognition beyond a line in the credits.

This sounds more like personal conflict than anything we could help you understand. Your argument sounds more like one of a contributor than one of a modder. Nothing to do with class. A contributor adds to authors work or act as co-author, and a modder releases their own build. It's still their table. Always will be. It is your mod of their table. But they have no control over it. That is all yours except I would not presume that being given permission to mod a table would go any farther than that. That is to say you should never strip it of it's mod label, or think you would have permission to authorize mods of your mod. That is the kind of control I think you don't have. Your permission to create a mod is permission to create a build. Part of me thinks it would be good form to get permission to update your mod if scope was discussed in the request and approval.

 

I could see a contributor having your problem, but I can't see why a modder should have that problem. No one can force you to take down an authorized mod. No one can force you to give your work to them. No one can accept contributions and then use them under the guise of it being their own work. If any of that is happening to you here, then you have a big problem here.

 

As you said, modding is excepted here. It makes this community accessible to more people of different skills and levels of that skill.

 

I agree. Modding has a stigma attached here just like it does anywhere else. These are not templates they are starting on, they are fully working tables. It does not require as much skill as dimensioning and building from scratch though the modder might have that skill.

 

If there is someone that has went almost all the way to make a table how you would like but he can't get something to work that you know how to do the worse way I can think of to handle that would be to take his pre-authorization and release a mod without first offering the working element to the author. 

Edited by Shockman, 15 May 2021 - 09:11 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

The founding concept here is to all work together to preserve pinball through software simulation andVP history in general. It's evolved into something much more 'cliquey' and scattered into clubs of 'exclusivity'.

 
(Going slight off topic, raised good point) Indeed that is case and most of that was spawned from not liking the rules here or personal beef. 
 
People do want to have a choice though, so I can't blame anyone for wanting to pick where they upload, but having all the segregation and only benefits the end user (the downloader).
 
I used to think if there wasn't as much segregation and `my mum's better than your mum` then you would get more teams of authors / modders working together, lessening the load and anyone from any skill set able to contribute to a game.

What rules? Respect each other and don't do new tables are really the only 'rules' here. If you can't respect each other, and the industry, starting new sites for that reason is the ultimate disrespect. Not hard to see that, unless you choose to be blind to it.

[chepas]

What rules? Respect each other and don't do new tables are really the only 'rules' here. If you can't respect each other, and the industry, starting new sites for that reason is the ultimate disrespect. Not hard to see that, unless you choose to be blind to it.

 

When I say rules I'm referring to the 3 year rule that was always in place and personal beef would be from members that they have with this site.

 

I don't know anyone personally anyway, but this happens or happened. I'm not involved in it anyway, I'm seeing it from 10,000 ft. 

[Noah Fentz]

What rules? Respect each other and don't do new tables are really the only 'rules' here. If you can't respect each other, and the industry, starting new sites for that reason is the ultimate disrespect. Not hard to see that, unless you choose to be blind to it.

 
When I say rules I'm referring to the 3 year rule that was always in place and personal beef would be from members that they have with this site.
 
I don't know anyone personally anyway, but this happens or happened. I'm not involved in it anyway, I'm seeing it from 10,000 ft. 

Personal beef. Lol

More like contrived conflict, but sure.

I've been accused of everything from selling tables to 'taking advantage of the community', whatever the hell that means. It's all an attempt to justify piss poor decisions, if you ask me.

I'll do anything, for anyone for this hobby. Everyone who actually interacts with me knows that. There are very few exceptions.

So much bullshit to wade through to get back to reality.

[chepas]

 

 

What rules? Respect each other and don't do new tables are really the only 'rules' here. If you can't respect each other, and the industry, starting new sites for that reason is the ultimate disrespect. Not hard to see that, unless you choose to be blind to it.

 
When I say rules I'm referring to the 3 year rule that was always in place and personal beef would be from members that they have with this site.
 
I don't know anyone personally anyway, but this happens or happened. I'm not involved in it anyway, I'm seeing it from 10,000 ft. 

Personal beef. Lol

More like contrived conflict, but sure.

I've been accused of everything from selling tables to 'taking advantage of the community', whatever the hell that means. It's all an attempt to justify piss poor decisions, if you ask me.

I'll do anything, for anyone for this hobby. Everyone who actually interacts with me knows that. There are very few exceptions.

So much bullshit to wade through to get back to reality.

 

 

Lol, that's just the way I've seen it. People can tend to create beef from thin air for some reason or other, jealous of traffic maybe.

 

Water off a ducks back though, 98% of people know you'd have no need to do that. 

 

We know there's no chance you load your VPins with leech.com multi packs.

[Noah Fentz]

 

 

What rules? Respect each other and don't do new tables are really the only 'rules' here. If you can't respect each other, and the industry, starting new sites for that reason is the ultimate disrespect. Not hard to see that, unless you choose to be blind to it.

 
When I say rules I'm referring to the 3 year rule that was always in place and personal beef would be from members that they have with this site.
 
I don't know anyone personally anyway, but this happens or happened. I'm not involved in it anyway, I'm seeing it from 10,000 ft. 

Personal beef. Lol

More like contrived conflict, but sure.

I've been accused of everything from selling tables to 'taking advantage of the community', whatever the hell that means. It's all an attempt to justify piss poor decisions, if you ask me.

I'll do anything, for anyone for this hobby. Everyone who actually interacts with me knows that. There are very few exceptions.

So much bullshit to wade through to get back to reality.
 

 
Lol, that's just the way I've seen it. People can tend to create beef from thin air for some reason or other, jealous of traffic maybe.
 
Water off a ducks back though, 98% of people know you'd have no need to do that. 
 
We know there's no chance you load your VPins with leech.com multi packs.

Not to mention what a piece of shit that would make me, given the first notification people see when they visit this site. Lol

It was all a joke to me, until people starting actually believing that crap.

Anyone, at any time, can call and ask me to load up their cab. They'll all get the same answer ... no. It's not hard to discover the truth, when you actually pursue it. It'll set you free ...

[Itchigo]

Sorry, this thread reminded me of this....