36 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

 

 My memory may be faulty but I thought on a real machine if you were light on your touch you could get a partial flip and thats how some flipper tricks were done. I know I can't expect every subtly to work and I was no magician on the flippers but it made me curious.  If we don't have that level of control then why not arcade buttons?

I would love that level of control! It would be great to be able to get just a tiny flick now and then... I've used arcade buttons for my stuff for a while, you get used to them I've wanted to do leafs but Ive read more then a few threads and idk if upgrading is worth it at this point if they only function as regular buttons anyway.. but someday if the functionality comes in I'd upgrade in a minute

 

All leafs do on any table, real or virtual, is be on or off

they have no variance 
they simply do not click, nor have that clicky feel to them
they are very smooth and silent.

 

But they have no halfway point etc
Electrically they work same are arcade buttons (Not all of which click, depends on vintage, buttons in my WOW cabinet are silent except the sound of the caps bottoming out)

What has a halfway point sort of, is the coil in the solenoid powering up
Though i do not know if on a modern table, if you get much ramp up there? They seem pretty fast.
A vintage table using vintage coils and a vintage power supply, maybe?
I mean they move a lot slower than modern ones do and work less efficient, so i can see cutting power early and it doesnt make it full travel.

 

You can tinker with the flipper physics, and kind of make them do it
but then the flipper does not respond on the other end of the spectrum how you would want

i got a floppy flipper going on a new blank table, but now it flips like a 1940 something table
which aint so good, but, i can stop it in less than full travel. LOL

And like thalamus said, doing it via scripting is not efficient, by the time you got it absolutely life-like via a script, it will probably run kind of badly
which is no fun.
It would need hard coded into the physics engine

[wiesshund]

Pretty sure you would not be able to do it via a keyboard or maybe even arcade buttons (?? - obviously untested by me)

 

Depends on the buttons/keyboard

 

Some are what i call HARD clicky
they have a stiff point of no return, and you may find it hard to release them fast enough.

a softer keyboard is not hard to do it on though, if you got light fingers

And if using modern arcade buttons, these will work nicely

Buttons :: Buttons :: GoldLeaf Pushbuttons - Ultimarc

 

they are kind of like the buttons in my WOW cab, but modern and compact
where as WOW has kinda big (in comparison) leaf switches on the ends of the buttons, but not the pinball kind, they are quite a bit smaller
and probably wont feel right pinball wise as their throw is pretty short (No finesse needed to shoot Worluk)
 

 

[njk70]

I'll order a pair and let you know.

[wiesshund]

To instigate insanity

 

May i recommend these?

 

Hall sensor, Linear tracking buttons

The Ultimate in flipper control
Why push the button all the way down when you only want a fraction of movement?
LOL

Not sure if they make anything comparable now days
But anyone have a Marx home pinball machine in like the late 70's

 

Fully mechanical rod activated flippers
Ultimate control of flipper velocity and angle

 

cant say much for the rest of the assembly
 

[Karlor]

All leafs do on any table, real or virtual, is be on or off

 

they have no variance 
they simply do not click, nor have that clicky feel to them
they are very smooth and silent.

 

But they have no halfway point etc
Electrically they work same are arcade buttons (Not all of which click, depends on vintage, buttons in my WOW cabinet are silent except the sound of the caps bottoming out)

What has a halfway point sort of, is the coil in the solenoid powering up
Though i do not know if on a modern table, if you get much ramp up there? They seem pretty fast.
A vintage table using vintage coils and a vintage power supply, maybe?
I mean they move a lot slower than modern ones do and work less efficient, so i can see cutting power early and it doesnt make it full travel.

 

You can tinker with the flipper physics, and kind of make them do it
but then the flipper does not respond on the other end of the spectrum how you would want

i got a floppy flipper going on a new blank table, but now it flips like a 1940 something table
which aint so good, but, i can stop it in less than full travel. LOL

And like thalamus said, doing it via scripting is not efficient, by the time you got it absolutely life-like via a script, it will probably run kind of badly
which is no fun.
It would need hard coded into the physics engine

 

I know that its supposed to be just ON or OFF but with the right finesse you can get a middle function, a dimmed signal or connection.. its very slight that's why it was fun to do sort of like a light switch its made to be ON or OFF but if you pinch it and move it very slowly you can get an in-between, a dimmed signal..

 

You can post pass pretty easy as is and sometimes you can get a flick pass but its hard to do consistently.. and depends on the table from what Ive seen.

 

And yeah I think the newer tables are faster, stronger so you wouldn't maybe get as much of a weakened signal or it would be an even finer touch to get it..

 

But yeah when your simming that function I can see how it would throw off the whole feel in other respects.. would still be cool if it could get it functioning without to much lag or other negative effects.

Edited by Karlor, 06 April 2021 - 10:56 PM.

[LynnInDenver]

And yeah I think the newer tables are faster, stronger so you wouldn't maybe get as much of a weakened signal or it would be an even finer touch to get it..

Many tables in the DMD era moved over to full computer control of the flippers. As an example, The Addams Family has the Thing Flips, and occasionally the End of Ball sequence includes the main flippers flipping up in time with the two finger snaps of the tune. So it can also impact the way the flippers act when you lightly press the button and then release it before the flipper goes all the way up.

[wiesshund]

I know that its supposed to be just ON or OFF but with the right finesse you can get a middle function, a dimmed signal or connection.. its very slight that's why it was fun to do sort of like a light switch its made to be ON or OFF but if you pinch it and move it very slowly you can get an in-between, a dimmed signal..

 

 

.

 

 

I could only see that working on a machine that does a direct routing of flipper coil voltage through the flipper buttons
And i might be wrong here, but i can not see that happening, even on a very vintage machine
because that is 48 / 50 volts DC and among other things, i dont foresee the contact lasting very long with 50 volts at say 2 amps
going through a non positive contact switch.

Maybe they did it, i am not sure, but that ranks up with scary electrical tales to me.
I can smell burning contacts now.

 

Pretty sure that anything built in my lifetime would consist of low voltage control circuits switching high voltage work circuits
in which the light switch scenario does not work (which if you listen, makes a not friendly sizzling sound in the light switch, which will eventually destroy the switch)

 

 

 

would still be cool if it could get it functioning without to much lag or other negative effects.

 

Probably, if it was inherent to the physics engine itself

Some kind of dwell time and maybe a few other flipper settings.
Not sure how complicated it would be, nor what the the payoff for the effort would be over all.
 

[njk70]

Older machines had high voltage going through the flipper switch, which I believe is why there are high and low voltage pinball flipper leaf switches. But it wouldn't really be a question of how much power got through the switch as it is how long. With a light touch you can "just" make a connection and immediately release it and that would activate the flipper coil just long enough to raise the flipper part way.  This behavior is almost certainly table specific so if it was to be simulated you would have to know enough about the table to decide whether it should allow flutter flips. The issue with a microswitch is whether it can make a short enough or controlled enough contact time to accurately do so. It would take someone stubborn to work on such an esoteric limited use feature of vpx.

 

So that gold micro leaf arcade button might be a good inbetwen choice but on reflection might not help me as I think I am looking for the feedback from the microswitch to make my tactile feedback happy. I'm going to keep messing with my leaf switches, I need to play more games instead of messing with the cab and software setup. I think I have to do house cleaning tonight and tomorrow though as there are some contractors coming and for some reason my wife doesn't want strangers to know a family of 6 == messy house. Oh well. Life happens.

[wiesshund]

Older machines had high voltage going through the flipper switch, which I believe is why there are high and low voltage pinball flipper leaf switches. But it wouldn't really be a question of how much power got through the switch as it is how long. With a light touch you can "just" make a connection and immediately release it and that would activate the flipper coil just long enough to raise the flipper part way.  This behavior is almost certainly table specific so if it was to be simulated you would have to know enough about the table to decide whether it should allow flutter flips. The issue with a microswitch is whether it can make a short enough or controlled enough contact time to accurately do so. It would take someone stubborn to work on such an esoteric limited use feature of vpx.

 

So that gold micro leaf arcade button might be a good inbetwen choice but on reflection might not help me as I think I am looking for the feedback from the microswitch to make my tactile feedback happy. I'm going to keep messing with my leaf switches, I need to play more games instead of messing with the cab and software setup. I think I have to do house cleaning tonight and tomorrow though as there are some contractors coming and for some reason my wife doesn't want strangers to know a family of 6 == messy house. Oh well. Life happens.

 

You have DOF if i understand correctly?

 

Take the flipper solenoids, and mount them to the inside of the cab, right beside the flipper buttons
In fact, mount them on some blocks, so the top of the solenoid cap is tight to the side of the cab.
(you may or may not wish to pad it with like some hard leather)

 

I mean that would basically kinda whack you right in the finger (In a non painful way)

Unless it is the other kind of feedback you mean
That feel you can get for when the microswitch just has enough pressure that you know a fraction more is going to trip it?

 

In that case, i think you have limited options
1) switch buttons, but choices of dual stage momentary arcade buttons are about nil
They do exist but they are not design for arcade games so the size is all wrong, so you'd be modding something, most likely
a leaf pusher for the button and travel, pushing a rocker that is in turn pushing the 2 stage microswitch
For that effort, one might simply get used to having two sets of flipper buttons easier? (which is the route i would go, and Thalamus would burn my cab, then pee on it LOL)

 

2) Custom fab a switch that depresses a rocker, which contacts 2 micro switches, or similar set up
Problem, space to design it is not exactly unlimited, and design needs to be reliable

 

3) Modify the leaf to depress a dummy microswitch for the feel
but the leaf will probably soak up a lot of the feel and you are only getting 1 click

 

4) give your self time and see if you can get used to the leaf switches, i am sure that it is an art form to using a progressive leaf switch
so it probably takes time to get the hang of it.
 

[njk70]

I just have SSF and its off at the moment as is most sound so I am playing with very little feedback of any kind which is kinda a weird experience. I was thinking of not putting solenoids in as I was really happy with SSF but maybe something for the flippers since it seems to be bothering me. I did a little googling for two stage buttons and the closest common solution is for cameras (light press to focus, full press to take picture). Anything cobbled together would probably be hokey. I think best bet is to let myself get used to it and maybe add the solenoid later (good idea). 

[wiesshund]

Not so much hokey
But you have a limited amount of space to work in

and a limited amount of industry standard objects to build with.

For what it is worth, on a real table, i can not feel jack from the flippers.
I hear them, not feel them.

 

Mod the appropriate tables so that the alt flippers have full function, sound and all

Make Thalamus happy, and give it a chance with the leaf switches.
Make em stiff, and give it a little time.

And play more, fiddle less.
If you keep fiddling, you will just kind of make yourself dissatisfied before you have actually had a chance to see if you can get used to it.

 

If you really hate it terribly, changing button types is no big deal
and going to 4 flipper buttons is only a spade bit away

[njk70]

Just an update on this. I got acclimated to them ok.  I wound up on an adjustment a LOT stiffer than I would have expected at first but it works for me. My hands/fingers rest naturally without accidentally triggering a flip even as i rest with a light pressure on the buttons.

 

Two things I have found..... a number of tables use the keys I configured for the second stage flip with something else (some loserman tables I think add a ball) so not sure if I should fix they keys I use or fix the tables that interfere.

 

The other thing is more strange. Every week or so it seems I have to lightly clean the leaf switch contacts. I have the top off so I can clearly see the leaf switches when I play and they are clearly touching but not activating until I clean them (just rubbing a piece of paper between the closed contacts seems to be enough). Doesn't seem right to me.

[wiesshund]

Just an update on this. I got acclimated to them ok.  I wound up on an adjustment a LOT stiffer than I would have expected at first but it works for me. My hands/fingers rest naturally without accidentally triggering a flip even as i rest with a light pressure on the buttons.

 

Two things I have found..... a number of tables use the keys I configured for the second stage flip with something else (some loserman tables I think add a ball) so not sure if I should fix they keys I use or fix the tables that interfere.

 

The other thing is more strange. Every week or so it seems I have to lightly clean the leaf switch contacts. I have the top off so I can clearly see the leaf switches when I play and they are clearly touching but not activating until I clean them (just rubbing a piece of paper between the closed contacts seems to be enough). Doesn't seem right to me.

 

Thing 1:
Fix the tables.
Some people hard key things in the table script, coins, game start, flippers etc

For ROM tables, once you have your stage flips set (which i think you do already?)
Just edit the table, split the conjoined flips apart.

 

If you know the solenoids, then add the solenoids and appropriate subs for the staged flips

 

what you set here
 

keyStagedFlipperL : keyStagedFlipperL = 

Will take care of the rest

 

On a non ROM table, or a table not using solenoids for flipper control

 

just split the flippers into 3 or 4 (depending on how many staged the table has) discrete subs

 

and then add key down/up's for your staged keys

 

If key down = keyStagedFlipperL 

If key down = keyStagedFlipperr

 

etc

 

which reminds me, i have to ask toxie why the custom keys are not presently working

On on the cleaning

1 or 2 things

 

Oxidation, in which case light covering of dielictric grease will help

 

Coking from arcing
i would assume that the voltage is low enough that you have 0 arcing?

if for some reason it is not, may need some caps across there, but i just can not see you having voltage enough to feel let alone arc
so im going with oxidation.

Clean them up good and put a little dielictric grease on the contact surfaces

[mjr]

 Every week or so it seems I have to lightly clean the leaf switch contacts. I have the top off so I can clearly see the leaf switches when I play and they are clearly touching but not activating until I clean them (just rubbing a piece of paper between the closed contacts seems to be enough). Doesn't seem right to me.

 

Any chance your switches have tungsten contact points instead of gold?  That could explain it - the tungsten switches are for high-voltage applications, in this case for the older pinballs where the 50V flipper power was switched directly through the buttons.  For logic switching (like a virtual pinball key encoder), you need gold contact points.  The tungsten contacts hold up to high voltages well, but they have relatively high resistance and oxidize pretty readily, so they'll get worse over time just sitting there with exposure to the air.  The gold contacts have low resistance and don't oxidize.  If you do have gold contact points, I don't know what would make them get dirty so quickly, unless you have a lot of dust or grease floating around inside the cab, something like that.  Everything in a real pinball gets thoroughly coated over time with a layer of fine metallic dust, from all of the mechanical action that's constantly grinding down the metal parts - but it takes a long time to accumulate enough to notice, and a virtual cab doesn't have nearly as much mechanical wear going on.

[njk70]

It was mentioned to me earlier that I had high voltage dual stage leaf switches so that indeed sounds like the issue. At the time I couldn't find any dual stage low voltage leaf switches but I think an earlier post pointed to a stern version (i was always looking at williams parts). I didn't think it would make much of a difference but I guess I was wrong. The machine is in a refurbished garage (well half the garage is remodeled for a game room) and its a bit dusty from all the work on the machine and what not.

 

I'll make do for now, but will have replacement switches on my list for the next time I order (shipping costs from these vendors are killing making small orders, I have to wait until i need several things at once). 

[mjr]

At the time I couldn't find any dual stage low voltage leaf switches but I think an earlier post pointed to a stern version (i was always looking at williams parts). 

 

That makes sense - when Williams adopted their low-voltage system (Fliptronics), they also changed all of the flipper switches to optical.  I think that a couple of the early Fliptronic I titles used low-voltage leaf switches, but for the most part, Williams machines are either the high-voltage system with tungsten leaf switches, or the low-voltage system with optical switches.  But Stern has gone back to leaf switches on their modern machines, and of course anything modern will be low-voltage.

 

If you have a really challenging dust environment, you could consider using the optical switches.  Those should be lower-maintenance in general, which is why Williams adopted them in the first place.  But I suspect that would be overkill; it's probably the tungsten oxidation that's causing your grief more than dust.  The high-voltage contacts are kind of borderline in terms of low-voltage conductivity at their best.

[wiesshund]

It was mentioned to me earlier that I had high voltage dual stage leaf switches so that indeed sounds like the issue. At the time I couldn't find any dual stage low voltage leaf switches but I think an earlier post pointed to a stern version (i was always looking at williams parts). I didn't think it would make much of a difference but I guess I was wrong. The machine is in a refurbished garage (well half the garage is remodeled for a game room) and its a bit dusty from all the work on the machine and what not.

 

I'll make do for now, but will have replacement switches on my list for the next time I order (shipping costs from these vendors are killing making small orders, I have to wait until i need several things at once). 

 

apply a little bit of dielectric grease

it will reduce the exposure to the air on the contact faces

should help a bit