39 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

And yes Xenonph

 

Given that all monitors come in standard sizes

and most are going to be either

768, 900, 1080,1440 or 2160 pixels tall (Until one of you guys gets a damned 8k monitor on your desk)

 

Could probably come up with 5 standard ready to double click and apply registry files for this

And if there are actually a lot of people with some of the no longer available 16:10 monitors

it would be no big deal to make some reg files with those as well

 

and the files would only contain the width height and x / y positions
no other vpx settings

 

I would need some info from a few volunteers though
Mainly, on a given resolution screen, what do you consider the best size for the backglass when displaying all on one screen

Since that will influence the WindowPosX and someone with a 4k res is going to have a lot more pixels in the backglass than someone with a 720p screen
(Physical size does not really matter, just the resolution itself)

 

And some standardized screenres.txt files could be put together as well
One for each monitor resolution
 

Edited by wiesshund, 11 March 2021 - 08:58 AM.

[xenonph]

Wow cool!!

I better wait until I have had a full nights rest before i try this. (I am a little tired.)

LOL I was so tired the other night when I wrote that question in VPX beta topic about having the dll register problem.

Come to find out I think it was the PinUP player that I couldn't get to register.

I was already embarassed so I never followed up with the "Oh wait it was my PinUP install" lol.

Sleep is a very good thing sometimes!! lol

I will try this first thing, as soon as I wake up and have coffee.

I have recently learned how to use blender, (Thanks to 32assassin!!) so if i can do that, editting Registry should be piece of cake!!

 

That is the one great thing about this hobby.

You can learn something new everyday!!

And there are people willing to help teach you too!!

You just need to have the will to learn something new!!

 

I knew nothing about editting pics, sounds, or script, when I first started working on these tables years ago.

I did work with computers back when they first started putting those Apple II computers in schools. (5th grade I think.)

They taught us how to write programs in BASIC. (Bet they don't do that anymore for free.)

So I already understood a little about how the table script worked and variables and such.

 

What got me into working on these tables, was I saw a mod that JPSalas uploaded. It was a Whitewater Smurf mod I think.

Find here...

https://www.vpforums...s&showfile=6122

 

Well when I downloaded it, there was no table. Just a bunch of pics.

I thought...what the hell is this?

I was intrigued!! Obviously I had to try and figure out how to get this to work.

After seeing the smurf pic on playfield, a lightbulb went off in my head.

I thought to myself, I should try to make a Seahawks mod out of that NFL table.

That was it for me.

I have been hooked on working on these tables every since that day!!

It is super addictive!!

I actually work on them more than I play them!!

 

Anyways, enough of my yappin. (See im frickin tired lol)

Will try this in the morning.

Thanks again bro.

 

Carry on.

 

EDIT:

 

Just saw you wrote a new message while I was typing this one.

Sounds good!!

Yes the different screen resolutions settings would help..

In those VP9 versions, the screenres.txt controls the size of backglass as usual, but for the backglasses that didn't have the DMD or score LEDs hardcoded into the backglass, like this Tom&Jerry 2 screen backglass, I would script in the DMD position and size. (Also ColorDMD.)

But for people with different screen resolutions, this script coded dmd shows in the wrong place. (I remember my friend Thalumus telling me about this.)

Knowing these different resolutions, could help me know what numbers to set these at. or could be added to text for the people to adjust to the correct numbers themselves.(Like a cheat sheet.)

But like you say, you need volunteers with the different screen resolutions to try it out.

Edited by xenonph, 11 March 2021 - 10:17 AM.

[wiesshund]

Wow cool!!

 

I play a lot on my laptop with the OS rotated, this laptop's hinge lets the screen fold back beyond flat, so its easy to do
so i tried this, not so much with this little 14" screen in mind, but i was thinking of people that maybe have desktops with a rotating vesa mount
and even those with a single ultrawide monitor

 

Again, this is with rotating the OS

Also, ignore the fact that i left the backdrop and in table score LED's visible, was just a quick setup with only a quick thought to backglass size etc, probably should have just
unrotated cab mode

But...

 

 

For a guy (or girl, they play too and are probably better than me) with just 1 screen, but the ability to rotate it, With a bit of fine tuning, this could be spiffy
I could really see rockin this on one of those ultrawide screens

 

Edited by wiesshund, 11 March 2021 - 10:19 AM.

[xenonph]

Damn that looks good rotated!!

Almost like a FSS table!! Except you can switch out and use any backglass you want.

 

Its official, we need to make regular and rotated versions!!

Im hooked!!

[wiesshund]

 

I knew nothing about editting pics, sounds, or script, when I first started working on these tables years ago.

 

 

 

I didnt know jack, and still dont really know jack.

But i wanted to play a specific table, and my only choices were
A nicely done but not really correct FP version, and FP floaty physics did not thrill me.

And an old VP 9 version that was, well it was VP9 and an old one at that, and it was missing some things as the documentation for the table was like non existent
(such is the life for many foreign made tables)

 

And then i learned the hard way that i pretty much could not directly convert the table, too much change in VPX versions
(Oh yea, i thought how hard can this be)

 

And i basically stole everything everyone else did from then to now
through lots of trial and error, trying to figure out how they did some similar little task and then tear it apart and try to make it do something similar but different.
You should read my table script, its full of comments that say Hi so and so, i stole this from you.

 

Then, i got a brilliant (as in retarded) idea.
"What if they built this table in 2013 and not 1983?"
Like how hard can that be?

 

Big reality check.
Try to make a 1983 table with a ROM that runs a simple analog LED display and a not well documented rule set run a color DMD with stuff that never existed in the table
And then have the frankentein script that ensued actually have a clue about what the ROM is saying.
Like how many are playing, whose turn is it, what ball are we on, what are the scores, how many points did i just get for that etc.
I still can not properly explain how i managed to get it to work, cause i dont really understand exactly, if i look at it too long, i get confused
and i wrote it.

It was like one of those things where you fix A, and B implodes, so you fix B, and G falls over, so you fix G and C blows a fuse.

 

I almost said screw it, no modern fantasy version.

And then i could not, and still can not, do graphics to save my life.
Improving the graphics was harder than making up hideous spaghetti code.
Days to recreate a simple apron in vector, because there was no good art anyplace.
Not because the apron was hard to make, but because i stink at graphics.
I mean seriously, who does a simple apron and winds up with 79 layers in paintshop pro?

 

And i STILL dont really have a clue what i am doing.
It's like riding a go-kart
down a cliff
I just keep waiting for the sudden stop LOL

[wiesshund]

Damn that looks good rotated!!

Almost like a FSS table!! Except you can switch out and use any backglass you want.

 

 

Yea, i tried to swap out the backglass on a table i made into FSS

 

It sucked

Was not a 5 minute change out at all
None of the lights matched up, LED segments needed repositioned, and rescaled

and then fiddling with the script so it would stop moving them to the wrong place

 

And no real good way to make those easy to swap out unfortunately.
 

What would be good for that is something that works like freezy's dmd renderer, but captures b2s servers video output
And redirects it to a flasher inside the table.
Just build a generic back box, and toss in any b2s you like.

But that does not even remotely sound like an easy or popular project, plus that is a lot of pixel capturing of a large display
might kill video performance

[xenonph]

Yes alot of work I can imagine with getting backglass in a FSS version working.

Love your Heavy Metal table!! (And love the cartoon!!)

 

With these dB2SDT versions, besides being able to swap out backglass for newer or different one, you will be able to access the backglass settings the same as cabinet users.

You can right click on the backglass with mouse and change to fantasy version if backglass has one. Or access other backglass settings. Just like Cabinet Users.

 

I actually include a B2STableSettings.xml file so the dB2S Backglass starts in Fantasy Mode on this Judge Dredd dB2SDT mod I made 4 years ago.

https://www.vpforums...&showfile=13161

I also added Color to the DMD.

This table has the DMD position scripted. So it will be out of place on different screen resolutions.

So learning what numbers to place in the script for each screen resolution would be great!!

I could make an option at top of script with all the different resolution settings, so users could just do a simple change of A B or C and it would put DMD in specified spot according to their specific screen resolution.

But like you say. Need testers with different screen resolutions to tell you the numbers they use.

 

4AM here so Im ready for bed.

This stuff is exciting to me!!

Hard to sleep!! lol

Edited by xenonph, 11 March 2021 - 12:33 PM.

[wiesshund]

Bed? oh heck i am already long been back up and gone back to work
i'd like to go to bed, but i'm not very good at sleeping.

 

FSS is cool, and not cool at the same time

 

Some people tell me it is hard on their eyes, and i believe them since it is made out of a bunch of mostly transparent objects you can actually see through

It is a pain in the butt to set up

VPX does a horrid job of setting up the FSS POV cause lights and camera mode does not work in it

And the player is largely stuck with the POV the author gave the table in, they cant adjust much at all since the POV is very much tied to the backdrop image
and the fact that adjusting the POV tends to pull the backglass apart.

I can understand why most table authors do not bother
I did it for a few tables and said Yeah, enough of that.

 

The playfield window size, for landscape view is pretty much cut and dried

you could even go with a standard offset, but the B2S size and the DMD size are the tricky parts

I do not have screens with the resolution capabilities needed to mock up all the sizes.

 

I might be able to partly work them out on my desktop, since it's video card does do virtual super resolutions, but i can only go up to 2k
my HDMI cable does not support 4K so it does not appear as a valid resolution

[chuck300x11]

I don’t know why but for some reason pinball dementia’s Tom and Jerry mod is working perfectly today. I couldn’t see the back glass  or dmd yesterday. Pinball wizard I have a laptop with 1920 x 1080 screen resolution.

[kiwi]

 

FSS is cool, and not cool at the same time

 

VPX does a horrid job of setting up the FSS POV cause lights and camera mode does not work in it

And the player is largely stuck with the POV the author gave the table in, they cant adjust much at all since the POV is very much tied to the backdrop image
and the fact that adjusting the POV tends to pull the backglass apart.

I can understand why most table authors do not bother
I did it for a few tables and said Yeah, enough of that.

 

With the table fully built in the editor, with backbox and backglass,

you can change the POV smoothly, like for desktop or full screen,

and the table is playable in virtual reality as well.

[wiesshund]

 

 

FSS is cool, and not cool at the same time

 

VPX does a horrid job of setting up the FSS POV cause lights and camera mode does not work in it

And the player is largely stuck with the POV the author gave the table in, they cant adjust much at all since the POV is very much tied to the backdrop image
and the fact that adjusting the POV tends to pull the backglass apart.

I can understand why most table authors do not bother
I did it for a few tables and said Yeah, enough of that.

 

With the table fully built in the editor, with backbox and backglass,

you can change the POV smoothly, like for desktop or full screen,

and the table is playable in virtual reality as well.

 

 

I can change it in the backglass editor yes

if i change it using F6, table is on its side and pivoting like it is tipping over sideways

sort of annoying if a guy is not used to doing it by hand typing in values

 

See what i mean?

And yet that really messed up looking craptastic mess results in this in play mode

 

 

If you know a secret i am totally missing, please share
it would make life so much easier

Edited by wiesshund, 12 March 2021 - 08:41 AM.

[kiwi]

I know, F6 in FSS mode with the table rotated by 270 degrees doesn't work.

 

Looking at the image above, it seems that the segments of the displays are not in the right Y position, they seem to be far from the backglass.

 

I use this method which I explained here: https://www.vpforums...=72#entry442001

 

Each of my tables has FSS mode, if you need to have a look.

[wiesshund]

I know, F6 in FSS mode with the table rotated by 270 degrees doesn't work.

 

Looking at the image above, it seems that the segments of the displays are not in the right Y position, they seem to be far from the backglass.

 

I use this method which I explained here: https://www.vpforums...=72#entry442001

 

Each of my tables has FSS mode, if you need to have a look.

 

No, they are normally fine
I accidentally nudged them when getting the screen shots, and it didnt seem important to put them back
cause i didnt save the booboo to the table anyways

 

[wiesshund]

@Xenonph

 

l

I came up with this layout, for desktop mode, small screen, being that a cab view is just too little for someone with a 14 to 17" screen (Maybe even 19?)

as you can imagine, a tiny table plays faster than you can see hehe
So i tried to maximize the amount of table you can get on the screen by keeping with the traditional kind of desktop inclination
And yet still have a nice sized backglass and DMD if the table has one

 

What you think?

 

I am going to try to set up to work with different resolutions over the weekend
see if i cant maybe come up with some easy to use reg and res files for different resolutions

[xenonph]

That is why I tried to keep the Desktop POV that the DT users were already used to untouched.

I only adjust the backglass size in the upperleft corner to fit as much as possible, without interfering with the table.

So you still get the maximum table view allowed, and the backglass on the side.

But I like your Idea of uniform backglass on one side and  DT view window on other.

You can't get that Desktop view on right side of screen by just moving the table to the right.

You need to do what you did and assign that left part of the screen just for the table.

I love it!!

Maybe this could be added to Visual Pinball program?

Have the option to split the screens like you did, and run desktop table on right side of screen, and backglass and DMD on left side.

[wiesshund]

That is why I tried to keep the Desktop POV that the DT users were already used to untouched.

I only adjust the backglass size in the upperleft corner to fit as much as possible, without interfering with the table.

So you still get the maximum table view allowed, and the backglass on the side.

But I like your Idea of uniform backglass on one side and  DT view window on other.

You can't get that Desktop view on right side of screen by just moving the table to the right.

You need to do what you did and assign that left part of the screen just for the table.

I love it!!

Maybe this could be added to Visual Pinball program?

Have the option to split the screens like you did, and run desktop table on right side of screen, and backglass and DMD on left side.

 

I did mention this in the beta thread, as a future idea
Allow more manipulation of the non full screen player window, then a person could simply grab it and size how they like.
Or at least some standard presets or something.

 

I am still going to see if perhaps on larger screens a cab type view is feasible
Could be for people with monitors close to 30 inches or larger
Cause i know some people like to play in that view, but just dont have a set up to do it in
and playing with your head turned sideways hurts LOL

Trust me, i've done it.
If it was not just entirely unfeasible with my present monitor, i would just up end it and prop it against the wall
and call it cab mode, but it is too old and too heavy and has a steel weighted hard to remove stand.

 

(I say heavy, then i think of the 36" CRT television i occasionally have to drag around)

[xenonph]

lol Yes I too have got the crooked neck, because I like to see screen in FS mode to see lighting changes I make, or other changes.

I will still release a few of these dB2S mods for the DT users. (As these are simple click and play versions, so no need to edit screens and such.)

But will hold off on mass production. lol

[xenonph]

I forgot to ask you, but i am sure I already know the answer.

When you are using the split window method, you are not using anything to keep the backglass on same screen right?

It just automatically stays up, like it would if you downsized the playfield to smaller resolution, to see the backglass on same screen right?

So there will be no need for that exe to be included (Like the ones I include with these db2sDT mods to keep backglass on same screen)

Also no special mods will have to be made, as this should work with the regular DT POV that the table has originally.

The table will just be centered off to the right.

(Which can't be done by just simply moving X Scale to right. That messes up all angles unless you have just a top down view)

But I think even then, the pinball travels towards the true center of screen.

So your assignment of the new screen just moves the center over. Which is perfect!! Same POV as original DT table, Just moved to the right, with the blank sides cut off!!

You really wouldn't need to make a bunch of different resolutions.

Maybe just a 60% for table and 40% for backglass?

People with different screen resolutions can adjust the backglass size in the screenres.txt 3rd and 4th numbers.

 

Remember this needs to go back to regular view  when exiting table, or have an easy way to change back to normal view, or nobody will want to try this.

Or maybe in future Devs can add this as an option along side FSS and FS option.

Maybe have a db2sDT option that can simply be turned on and off like DT and FSS option.

 

I really think DT users will love this!!

And all the backglass makers will now have a whole new crowd coming to download and use their works of art!!

Now DT users can enjoy the full pinball experience, of seeing backglass and table in action at same time!!

The backglass is half the experience!! Or at least it's a very big part of it!!

 

I can't wait!!

I really hope they can add it to VP program!! (If it is something easy to do.) The way you explain it, it sounds easy!!

But until then I will release a few of these db2sDT mods.

I already have permission from STAT to showcase his  awesome Fish Tales backglass with the built in topper, but I still need to ask the Fish Tales table builders.

I have a few other tables in mind also.

 

I am adding extras to these db2sDT mods.

Scripted in ColorDMD to the pinball games that have a DMD. (This Tom and Jerry has the built in LEDs in the 2 screen backglass, so no need.)

Also the DMD position and size can be adjusted in script for people with different screen resolutions.

Same goes for backglass, except size is adjusted in the screenres.txt file.

Adding Instruction Card that can be seen by pressing the letter I on keyboard.

(Don't know about you, but I can never see the Instruction card good enough to read it on these DT tables!!)

Adding JP's LUT script which can be toggled with the Magna-Save buttons.

Also adding wheel image to right side of screen that will light up with the GI lighting.

Or I may add backglass pic to background, and light that up with the GI lighting.

Also want to have the Table and Backglass Authors Info maybe on keypress or in left or right bottom corner of screen.

It is their work being showcased!!

Maybe add pinball Flyers on keypress also.

 

Ok enough yappin.

Carry on.

Edited by xenonph, 13 March 2021 - 06:48 AM.

[wiesshund]

 

When you are using the split window method, you are not using anything to keep the backglass on same screen right?

It just automatically stays up, like it would if you downsized the playfield to smaller resolution, to see the backglass on same screen right?

 

no, nothing

When not in exclusive full screen mode, VPX will, like any other app
listen to most any size you tell it to display the window in

 

So what i did in that 2nd version with the desktop POV is just reduce the size of the VPX Player window to what the table needed width wise, height is the entire screen

So i did away with all the dead space the player window would normally have on the sides, which us usually a ton unless one goes and sets the table at an extremely laid down
inclination, which looks really terrible anyways even though it is kind of fun to watch the ball like that for a couple minutes
Kind of a flipper cam view LOL, but you can not really play well like that nor see the top lanes etc

so what you see on the right, where the table just nibbles off the bottoms of the side rails?
that it the entire size of the VPX player window, it is on top of everything as far as it is concerned

 

And the backglass is just simple the size and position i set in screenres.txt

and as far as the backglass is concerned, it is on top

and same for the DMD, be it a b2s DMD or a freezy DMD

No one is touching the next guy, and everyone thinks that they are on top

 

the screen is black solidly because the desktop is black, and desktop icons are hidden, and the table had no backdrop graphic set
 

Now forgive the firepower table i screen shot, i have a very very odd non droptarget version of it
it has ramps way out at the front and rear of the table, and what looks like maybe a VR room box diagonally around it, and the POV is almost flat
and also much zoomed out, and the backdrop score LED's sit super far into what would have been table view area.

I just used it as is to screen shot, that that one is a case of player needs to mod table a bit, or use one of the other fire power tables.

I just like that one because it looks very nice.

 

one could easily fix it by setting the POV right, setting the backdrop image to none and dragging the score board up above the backglass boarder

in the vpx backglass editor screen.

 

But i just wanted to mention it in case anyone looks at that screen shot and thinks well that sucks, scoreboard is laying on the table.

 

But anyways, you are looking at 3 separate object on the screen, each object is exactly the size it appears to be, and no object are touching or on top of another one

so no need to worry about who is on top, they all think they are on top.

 

And yes a DT user would be able to use any backglass they wanted
Make their own, mod an existing one, use a DMD display, see ultraDMD tables with the ultraDMD display
And if i am not mistaken, i think PUP also allows you to designate the size and placement of the PUP player window?
So yea you could have a single screen desktop set up and should be able to fully enjoy a PUP table?

 

Even if you have 2 screens but they are side by side and they are landscape, you ever try to look left or right at the scoreboard
and keep the ball out of the drain?
It is a lot easier to glance UP on a cab quick, than it is to glance sideways, especially if you wear glasses, too much angle to swing through when you are panning across 48 combined inches of screen or what not.

So yea they could see everything, and not lose the ball cause of it

 

 

You really wouldn't need to make a bunch of different resolutions.

Maybe just a 60% for table and 40% for backglass?

 

Well, it is kind of easier to do it per rez
that way there is kind of a uniformity

 

but there are really only a few common resolutions
The Height is actually the controlling factor, the width is going to be a product of the height

 

1280x720 could probably be ruled out unless someone pipes up and says yes me!
the screens in that rez are very small, unless you rotate to cab mode and lay the screen flat, i dont know that a person could play well anyways?

 

So you have

1366x768 which is every 720p LCD from 14" to 32"

 

1440x900 and 1600x900 use same settings because both are 900 pixels tall, the 1600 screen just has more black space to the right of the table

 

1920x1080, every HD monitor regardless of physical size

 

2560x1440, all 2K monitors

 

3840x2160, all 4K monitors

 

so that is only 5 configs

[wiesshund]

 

Adding Instruction Card that can be seen by pressing the letter I on keyboard.

(Don't know about you, but I can never see the Instruction card good enough to read it on these DT tables!!)

 

 

Ok enough yappin.

Carry on.

 

What i do, on the instruction cards is...

 

Well, ok so 1st i got the playfield image, which is the table size.
which i run all the way to the back edge of lockdown bar, and the playfield res is approx 2k
What ever multiple of the table dimension comes out to round 2k 600dpi
 

So, then i do the apron, which i make as a layer of the playfield

the apron does not come out as a huge file though, because most of it is transparent, no pixels

I usually leave it all on the same paintshop pro file, and just label the layers, so i can turn on and off what i need to export to png later

 

Then i do the instruction cards, the same way.

I make a new layer, and turn off all the playfield layers, inserts etc and just leave the apron showing

so i can get the instructions in the right places, then i will turn off the apron layers and do the cards in vector text.
The cards dont export as a huge file even though it is the same dimensions as the playfield cause again, most of the image has no pixels.

 

If i wanted to have different cards, maybe different language or something

I would just make a few different vector text layers, and export several different card images

 

I am sure there are other ways, maybe better ways that is just how i do it
makes everything line up real nice, and i hate blurry aprons and instructions, my eyes make enough blurry on their own.

The hard part is finding proper fonts

Could be done at something close to 4k as well, i just have not had any table art that was good enough to upscale to 4k

2k was as far as i could get before the image started to degrade, even with the fancy upscaling tools, someone with better skills could probably get them better than me, but i am not really good at retouching
It looks retouched when i do it.

 

This POV is Terrible, but i wanted to stick the cards way up close to show the clarity

also game is over, so table is in dark mode

Edited by wiesshund, 15 March 2021 - 08:48 AM.