30 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

or run with 120 and see if you can ignore some minor tearing

 

I dont think it is your i7 limiting you
unless they got some heavy handed fast timers running or something?

 

well, PUP tables can be CPU intensive if you have a lot of those

that is due to the fact that the video player doesnt use hardware rendering for the video

 

You can test that by turning off PUPand playing the same table

[patrickcreagh]

I have a 1660 super running without 4x Brute force in my system (runs at about 50% utilisation for most tables even most recent ones). It is by far much newer technology than the rest of my system. 

 

I imagine the i7 4770 +  it's aging platform (it is a 4th gen i7 - max 1600mhz ram, lower memory bandwidth) are likely the cause of any dips in performance, otherwise I should be getting fps like the newer systems get. It's just an old platform and even if the CPU isn't maxing out, it is still likely not pushing as many frames as newer CPUs would. 

 

I have done PUP and no PUP tests previously and didn't notice much of  a difference, only pup table that runs quite low is Batman 66, but I get dips due to the physics of the bat phone and other things on that one. I re-encode all Pup packs to 720p and a much lower bit rate just in case for my system. 

 

Anyway enough rambling, if I get the new monitor I'll provide an update testing a fixed 120hz or G-Sync settings etc. - it may help some people in future. 

Edited by patrickcreagh, 08 February 2022 - 02:47 AM.

[wiesshund]

720p is a great idea, take all the decoding load off things

 

Batman they might be running a lot of heavy tasks of high speed timers.

 

I forget what rez you are running, but vpx wise the 1660's sweet spot is 1080p to 1440p

[csdf28]

Just to add my own experiences on this topic.  My desktop machine (2060 Super, Ryzen 5900x) has a 27" QHD 165 Hz LG monitor with G-SYNC.  Everything runs great on this screen no matter what settings I change.  

 

My proto-cabinet (3060Ti, Ryzen 3700x) has a newer 27" QHD 180Hz LG monitor that is G-SYNC compatible (not full G-SYNC).  On this machine, I suffer from being able to see individual frames of the ball movement, when the ball is moving quickly.  This is hard to describe, but what I mean is that when the ball moves fast, the movement decomposes into an image of the ball, then a gap, then another image of the ball further along its line of movement.  The movement itself is fine - there is no stutter or judder anywhere, ball-paths are silky smooth and response lag is minimal.  It's just that the illusion of high-speed movement is somehow lost.  The problem is that once you notice this, you can't unsee it.  For my instance, the best solution was to disable G-SYNC in the Nvidia control panel.  Now I have a monitor refreshing at 180 Hz and a GPU running anywhere from 220 FPS and upwards.  I still notice the individual frames of the ball movement, but it's much better than before.  Capping the GPU at 175Hz or whatever makes no difference to me, nor does enabling or disabling VSync in VPX (or on the Nvidia control panel).

FWIW, now that I've "seen" this ball movement oddity, I see it too on the desktop, though much less obviously.  Like I said, once you see it, it's hard to unsee.  I guess the fundamental problem is that a 27" monitor  (615mm long), refreshing 180 times a second, will create a new frame every 5.5 ms.  Assuming the ball can travel from bottom to top of the screen in 200ms or so (guess?), that's only 36 frames, so there's a visible offset of 17mm in the ball position between each frame.  

[richintx]

Just to add my own experiences on this topic.  My desktop machine (2060 Super, Ryzen 5900x) has a 27" QHD 165 Hz LG monitor with G-SYNC.  Everything runs great on this screen no matter what settings I change.  

 

My proto-cabinet (3060Ti, Ryzen 3700x) has a newer 27" QHD 180Hz LG monitor that is G-SYNC compatible (not full G-SYNC).  On this machine, I suffer from being able to see individual frames of the ball movement, when the ball is moving quickly.  This is hard to describe, but what I mean is that when the ball moves fast, the movement decomposes into an image of the ball, then a gap, then another image of the ball further along its line of movement.  The movement itself is fine - there is no stutter or judder anywhere, ball-paths are silky smooth and response lag is minimal.  It's just that the illusion of high-speed movement is somehow lost.  The problem is that once you notice this, you can't unsee it.  For my instance, the best solution was to disable G-SYNC in the Nvidia control panel.  Now I have a monitor refreshing at 180 Hz and a GPU running anywhere from 220 FPS and upwards.  I still notice the individual frames of the ball movement, but it's much better than before.  Capping the GPU at 175Hz or whatever makes no difference to me, nor does enabling or disabling VSync in VPX (or on the Nvidia control panel).

FWIW, now that I've "seen" this ball movement oddity, I see it too on the desktop, though much less obviously.  Like I said, once you see it, it's hard to unsee.  I guess the fundamental problem is that a 27" monitor  (615mm long), refreshing 180 times a second, will create a new frame every 5.5 ms.  Assuming the ball can travel from bottom to top of the screen in 200ms or so (guess?), that's only 36 frames, so there's a visible offset of 17mm in the ball position between each frame.  

I had the same problem... maddening really.  

 

Turn off gsync, set your monitor refresh rate to 120 in nvidia resolution and set vsync to “vsync” or “adaptive vsync”.  FYI... You want your refresh rate to be the same as the highest  FPS your computer can maintain without dipping.  In this case we’re assuming 120.  You’ll also need to select the resolution and 120 refresh rate in VPX.

 

By using vsync, the computer will wait to draw every chronological frame without skipping... which is The cause of what you are observing.

 

input lag will increase but not noticeably and significantly better choice than skipped frames.

 

Edit: BTW...   Gsync is inherently a vrr variable refresh rate technology that will intelligently not render frames that can’t be rendered immediately by the monitor.  For some reason, Gsync doesn’t actually truly render vsync when enabled... hence the reason to disable Gsync. While Gsync and variable refresh rate works great in action games... it just doesn’t add anything to VPX.  

 

Ask me how I know?

 

i refused to disable Gsync for months intuitively thinking I was cheating myself.  Out of sheer desperation, I finally tried disabling it.  What a stubborn techie I was.  Oh well... as I like to say ... “live and burn“.

Edited by richintx, 02 March 2022 - 11:23 PM.

[csdf28]

 

 

 

Edit: BTW...   Gsync is inherently a vrr variable refresh rate technology that will intelligently not render frames that can’t be rendered immediately by the monitor.  For some reason, Gsync doesn’t actually truly render vsync when enabled... hence the reason to disable Gsync. While Gsync and variable refresh rate works great in action games... it just doesn’t add anything to VPX.  

 

 

 

 

It's the other way round.  GSYNC will downclock the monitor so that it refreshes at the same (variable) rate as the GPU, keeping them in synch.  If you have a "slow" GPU that can't keep up with the monitor then this avoids tearing.  My (and probably your) problem is a "slow" monitor that can't keep up with the GPU.  Here, GSYNC does nothing because the monitor can't upclock past its refresh rate limit.  The extra GPU cycles are largely just wasted energy, heat and noise as the incremental response time benefit (from 180Hz to anywhere between 250Hz and 320Hz in my case) is imperceptible for a normal person.  

 

 

Edited by csdf28, 03 March 2022 - 06:21 AM.

[scutters]

@csdf28 @richintx

It sounds like you guys are lucky enough to have a GPU capable of outputting a FPS that always meet your monitors max refresh rate, so gysnc wouldn't do anything for you anyway? 

 

When i first posted this topic i was using a GTX1080 to drive a 4k 120hz monitor and at times in some games i would get FPS drops down to 80 or 90, gysnc worked well for that and rest of the time i got the benefit of 117FPS gameplay (as that was the cap i used). I've since upgraded my GPU so might not need gsync enabled anymore, but i've not not checked actual FPS in game to confirm and just set gsync back up again with settings as prev posts - i figure that if i don't need it for VPX now then i probably will for VPE when that comes out (who knows?!)

 

Glad to say that i haven't seen the thereafter un-unseeable ball frame trail csdf28 describes (and i don't want to either, so i'm not going to look for it!)

Edited by scutters, 03 March 2022 - 02:08 PM.

[richintx]

@csdf28 @richintx

It sounds like you guys are lucky enough to have a GPU capable of outputting a FPS that always meet your monitors max refresh rate, so gysnc wouldn't do anything for you anyway? 

 

When i first posted this topic i was using a GTX1080 to drive a 4k 120hz monitor and at times in some games i would get FPS drops down to 80 or 90, gysnc worked well for that and rest of the time i got the benefit of 117FPS gameplay (as that was the cap i used). I've since upgraded my GPU so might not need gsync enabled anymore, but i've not not checked actual FPS in game to confirm and just set gsync back up again with settings as prev posts - i figure that if i don't need it for VPX now then i probably will for VPE when that comes out (who knows?!)

 

Glad to say that i haven't seen the thereafter un-unseeable ball frame trail csdf28 describes (and i don't want to either, so i'm not going to look for it!)

one thing I’ve speculated about is that possibly “gysync compatible” monitors may be the problem.  Everything I tested was “gysync compatible” and didn’t have an actual Gsync module in it.  Anyway... like I said... I’m speculating.

 

btw if you haven’t seen the ball frame trail... you don’t have the problem... it’s impossible to ignore or not notice iIMHO.

[scutters]

one thing I’ve speculated about is that possibly “gysync compatible” monitors may be the problem.  Everything I tested was “gysync compatible” and didn’t have an actual Gsync module in it.  Anyway... like I said... I’m speculating.

 

 

 

btw if you haven’t seen the ball frame trail... you don’t have the problem... it’s impossible to ignore or not notice iIMHO.

 

 

Lucky for me 

My monitor (acer predator) is only gsync compatible though so we can rule that out. Maybe something to with the monitors overdrive settings? dunno.

[csdf28]

It's exactly the same phenomenon as when, in windows desktop, you move the mouse cursor around. Do it slowly and the cursor moves smoothly, as you speed up, the cursor decomposes into a trail of still images. This is a universal issue so I think it must be more that some people (myself included) are just more susceptible to noticing this. High refresh rates reduce the spacing between frames, but increase the overall number. I can only imagine the problem gets worse as the monitor gets bigger and the physical distance between refreshes is larger. It's just physics really: when an object moves faster than the refresh rate, there will be a visible gap between frames.

[goodtwist]

Ok.. so i needed to set the Max Frame Rate in Nvidia (as i can't get the VPX FPS limiter to work), everything suggests to go ~3 below the monitor refresh rate, set Max Frame Rate = 117.

 

Key setting! This really helped me on my budget system. The ball was slightly jittery even when the frame rate was really high. This really smoothed it out.

 

I set my frame rate to 58 in NVidia for my LG 43UP76 that maxes out at 60fps. I might post my settings in case it helps someone else.