61 replies to this topic

[Pinball999]

I also believe that the combination is the way to go. As for the speakers inside, Ive tried two car speakers and have a better result with a single good home cinéma central speaker.
The best result so far has been achieved wit pinuck EM tables, the shakers really make you feel that mechanichal parts are turning inside the cab!

[Sir Cheddar]

Speakers and a dedicated sub is the way to go, I say. You see, for instance, Rob's awesome build of Phantom of the Opera has a special low frequency sound effect which gets played shortly after the organ opens or closes.

It sounds and feels better then the gear motor for this purpose.

It might only be a well chosen sound effect normally, but with the sub it just feels - real. I just don't know how to explain it. Like there is some contraption inside the cab that shifts something into place.

 

Decent vibration. You can't make it with contactors nor with shakers. For vibration you need a sub. And not even a very big one.

Edited by Sir Cheddar, 14 January 2014 - 10:39 PM.

[arngrim]

i have a sub but in combination with the speaker from the dmd panel, i don't have any other space left for a secondary sub, 

 

do you have one sub for the two sound systems?

[Pinball999]

Problem here is that there are different types of shakers
Some are working like a sub (bass pump III) with less sound, and others like the buttkicker. With mine (bass pump III), I can feel the vibration on Centigrade when the flipper stay on the up position.

[Sir Cheddar]

No, I have two smaller subs. You can't boost the bass of the ROM sounds too much, it doesn't sound that good most of the time.

For the mechanical sounds - blast away.

[miracle]

In my first virtual pin project, i use 2 sound card, one for the rom and one for the table sound.

The table sound use a 2.1 sound system placed under the playfield.

Awesome, i you have a good bass pumper, you can feel the cab vibration. But i don't think about a kicker, it's a very good idea in addition to contactor.

Try it, you can't imagine play without after.

 

The bad side, it only work for VP tables

[Pinball999]

Teppotee is using a similar setup, and he made a request for a second sound output in Unity3D Pinball!

We have chances to have it there as well!

[slashbot]

I use 2 siemens contactors for flipper feedback + 2 soundcards (1x USB 1xonboard)

2xSMB110 2Way bass Reflex System speakers + original flipper speaker for VPinmame rom music (onboards soundcard)

Cambridge DDT2200 AEX soundtheather with subwoofer at max for VP flippersounds (USB soundcard)

 

I can only say that everyone is impressed, Its much much better then with 1 soundcard.

Can only tell you to invest in a good quality soundsystem with 2 soundcards, its realy a huge difference and im not gonna buy 8 extra siemens contactors anymore, but thats personal taste.

 

Also I cant proof if it helped splitting the sounds but i got no stutter anymore in Circus Voltaire Platinum 1.1 multiball,  before i installed the usb soundcard I got massive stutter on this table in multiball. everything runs smooth now.

On Attack from mars u can even feel the vibrations from the green marshans (aliens)

Edited by slashbot, 16 January 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[ringorian]

Teppotee is using a similar setup, and he made a request for a second sound output in Unity3D Pinball!
We have chances to have it there as well!

Its already in the alpha afaik. Its just the other way than in VP. You have to map rom sound in the options. Unity3d is taking the standard audio..

[SiliconOrb]

I'm going to hop way outside the box for a moment, but has anyone tried connecting a <2vDC power source to the + input of an amplifier and using an LED-Wiz (and perhaps a ~100k pulldown resistor) to modulate the - side of the input?  I just conducted a quick experiment doing just that with a smaller amplified subwoofer, and it did produce a very low frequency modulated tone.  Seems like it might be a real possibility for direct control of a bass shaker amp input.  Anyone considering trying this would want to make very sure not to send a value of 49 through 63 to the LED-Wiz, as this is straight DC, but values between 0 and 48 will produce a ~48hz modulation at varied intensities.  Since the bass shakers have a usable frequency range between 20 and 80hz, it may work surprisingly well.

Edited by SiliconOrb, 21 February 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[Pinball999]

I don't have the knowledge to investigate on this, but it sounds like a brilliant idea.
How would You send the signal to modulate? Via the ledwiz?

[SiliconOrb]

How would You send the signal to modulate? Via the ledwiz?

 

You would do basically the same thing you would do with the shaker motor.  Set the intensity, and then turn on that output for the desired time.  One thing I found interesting is that intensity 24, which is the 50% duty cycle point, seemed to create the most intense effect with regard to air movement from a speaker.  This may not hold true with a transducer, but I think the return will diminish rapidly beyond that point.  It tends to make sense, as the coil is is being driven at the same frequency throughout the range, with the difference being only the duty cycle.  At some point, the longer "on" time will likely just be creating heat, which wouldn't be desirable, rather than doing anything constructive.  

 

It is important to limit the voltage to less than 2v going to the amp.  Something as simple as a 1.5v wall wart type power supply might be all that is required to drive the amp input.  The pull-down resistor mentioned earlier, is to provide the (-) side of the amp input a ground reference.  It may not be necessary, but could help if the amp doesn't like the (-) being disconnected when the LED-Wiz output is off.  If used, it needs to be a high value, as it would be connected between ground and the LED-Wiz output, essentially supplying a very low current signal to the amp at all times.

 

I don't have the parts to test this, but I may get some in.  I'm finally getting my parts together for a pinball build, so it probably won't go to waste.

Edited by SiliconOrb, 21 February 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[woodsy15]

Getting closer to my build and wanted to update everyone who was filtering this thread. I have been bench testing the entire PC setup and just have the Aura bass shakers a try. I am using a second sound card in the PC and have set VP to send the mechanical sounds to this secondary card. Vpinmame ROM sounds go to the primary sound card. Vpinmame primary will have flipper fidelity 4" speakers and 8" Sub (currently PC speakers). The mech sounds ie: flippers, pop bumpers kickers etc are sent to the secondary card which I have the line output connected to an older Kenwood home stereo amp. (Could be a 4ohm car amp). The bass shakers are 4ohm tactile transducers meaning they vibrate and shake rather than producing sound waves like a normal sub would. The result already is very impressive! With some small adjustment to the amp volume dial you can get a nice result where ball roll sites but trigger them but the other major events do. Normally you would send a sub woofer output to these shakers that has already been crossover add they respond to anything past 120hz I believe. I am sending the full range signal to them from the sound card output and they are working great! You get a great feel of the flippers bouncing back to their start position! Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to pay all the detail as earlier there was some confusion about what these devices were. To recap, the Bass Shaker Pro pair are around $100 and you need a 4ohm amp of some sort. So very inexpensive solution that I already feel works very very well! I am attempting to include some pics in this post, I hope they make it... Cheers

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[vampirolatino2]

Awesome! Those auras re great, I will use them in my next big project .... a SimCar Cockpit/Seat/Thing lol

[Pinball999]

Getting closer to my build and wanted to update everyone who was filtering this thread. I have been bench testing the entire PC setup and just have the Aura bass shakers a try. I am using a second sound card in the PC and have set VP to send the mechanical sounds to this secondary card. Vpinmame ROM sounds go to the primary sound card. Vpinmame primary will have flipper fidelity 4" speakers and 8" Sub (currently PC speakers). The mech sounds ie: flippers, pop bumpers kickers etc are sent to the secondary card which I have the line output connected to an older Kenwood home stereo amp. (Could be a 4ohm car amp). The bass shakers are 4ohm tactile transducers meaning they vibrate and shake rather than producing sound waves like a normal sub would. The result already is very impressive! With some small adjustment to the amp volume dial you can get a nice result where ball roll sites but trigger them but the other major events do. Normally you would send a sub woofer output to these shakers that has already been crossover add they respond to anything past 120hz I believe. I am sending the full range signal to them from the sound card output and they are working great! You get a great feel of the flippers bouncing back to their start position! Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to pay all the detail as earlier there was some confusion about what these devices were. To recap, the Bass Shaker Pro pair are around $100 and you need a 4ohm amp of some sort. So very inexpensive solution that I already feel works very very well! I am attempting to include some pics in this post, I hope they make it... Cheers

 

You are going to love it, it just adds so much to the experience!

One thing though, you will gain a lot of clarity if you split the second line, and add a real speaker inside the cab.

 

I have started to make a list with different rates given to all mech sounds on my tables. This helps a lot to identify the good and problematic sounds, and to exchange them where needed.

It could be intersting to send you this list, and see if we get similar results between your Aura and my Bass Pump III.

[woodsy15]

Sounds good pb999, just to confirm that the plan is to use a second pinball fidelity car amp and use 4" Speakers for the mid/high range Mech sounds. The amp would have a proper cross over and I would connect one Bass Shaker to the sub output. One seems like it would be lots. A full size stereo amp is big and a bit over kill but is what I have around to test ;-). Thanks for all the replies

[Sir Cheddar]

Just in case anybody missed this information. I posted on page one of this thread about which emulators support multiple sound systems.

Separation of mechanical sounds works only for VPM-Tables at the moment. You can select a different sound card in VP's options so every sound VP generates goes to that device. vPinMame isn't influenced by that so it will send every ROM sound to the default device.

Non-VPM-tables can't separate mechanical sounds and will send all sound output to the cabinet speakers that way, which is ok for EMs but less than optimal for music template tables. 

 

This is obsolete. VP fully supports two sound systems starting with VP 9.2.1 and DX9_Test9 and it is easy to set up too. DJRobX explained the feature here.

 

This makes music tables, EMs and orignals sound much more realistic. Also don't forget about tables like LOTR and Elvis which may use sound samples, those need to be set to the backbox sound system too.

 

About EMs: I'm starting to think a second sound system has the biggest effect on those. See my post here

[woodsy15]

Sir Cheddar, funny you mentioned LOTR above. I just noticed that all its sounds are going through my secondary and to my shakers. How can I set those tables to send sounds to the primary backbox sound card ? Any help would be great, I am a bit out of my knowledge at this point. Thx

[frankrizzo2]

I just wanted to add that, in sim racing forums, they are using the tactile transducers ( Bass Shakers, Buttkickers Etc.) with a software add-on to simulate different parts of the roads and curb. By using certain frequencies to differentiate between "bumps", "curbs", or even the rpms of the car instead of just using the soundtrack of the game they have a lot more control of the "feedback".

 

The software that comes to mind is Simvibe by Simxperience but I do remember reading about it on the x-sim.de website also. I wish I was a little better at the software creation side of things but I thought I would throw this out there in case someone else with a little more technical knowledge would like to investigate this further.

 

I think this would be a really great add-on to virtual pinball if it could be implemented. 

[Sir Cheddar]

Sir Cheddar, funny you mentioned LOTR above. I just noticed that all its sounds are going through my secondary and to my shakers. How can I set those tables to send sounds to the primary backbox sound card ? Any help would be great, I am a bit out of my knowledge at this point. Thx

 

No problem. Note that you can switch to ROM sounds on this table by modifying line 66. This gives you the ability to control the volume level by the ROM's service menu but it may have an impact on performance or sound quality.

.Games(cGameName).Settings.Value("sound") = 1 'turn off the ROM sound and use samples instead

If you don't want to switch to ROM sounds start VP and go to the menu option "Preferences/Audio Options".

 

 

Output Sound Device needs to go to the sound system connected to the speakers inside your cabinet. Backglass Sound Device needs to go to the sound card for the backbox.

 

Restart VP and load LOTR into the editor. Go to "Table/Sound Manager"

 

Select all rom samples, they start with "fc", "fd" and "fe". You can use shift and ctrl-keys to select multiple lines.

Then assign them to the backbox sound device with the "To BG Out" button.

Remember to save the table after you're done. VP doesn't register a change on the table if you use the BG Out button and won't ask you to safe it when you exit VP

 

 

Elvis is pretty much the same.