95 replies to this topic

[tipoto]

Wow, it's a long post! And it shows me that no matter if we have different opinions on insignificant things, the most important is that we have the same passion for Pinball.

I participated in this thread just because I wanted to make sure that nobody think that I had any bad intentions when I made this table, and I know that you know that.

You said that maybe, somehow my table has affected desktop user in a bad way, and maybe you're right, I don't know! But I hope my table also brought positive things to the VP community in general and that it was worth to make it.

[tttttwii]

Tipoto, your table is by far the most impressive one on my cab! Thank you for that - great job!

[xio]

Your table certainly brought something. I remember, before building my cab, I was playing it on my laptop with my head rotated to 90°

 

The only thing about this table is that it's the ony one from you, could we expect its brother or sister ?

[waspstar]

Tipoto, your table has given me many hours of pure fun. To me it is a masterpiece and one of the reasons I have now ordered me a mini cab from Noah. I plan to enjoy this beauty for a long time. I thank Thee and hope you will make another like this one day (even if it takes a lot of time, blood, sweat, tears and hard work.)  

[lizardking]

You said that maybe, somehow my table has affected desktop user in a bad way, and maybe you're right, I don't know! But I hope my table also brought positive things to the VP community in general and that it was worth to make it.

I am a desktop user & I can only speak for myself.

It has not affected me tipoto, I just wanted to let you know

I saw your table & YES it is a Beauty man   but I am not mad or hating because I cant play your gem.

You took your time & skills to make what you wanted & you shared it.

To be mad at it or affected by it would be like, to be mad at people who can afford a Cab when I can not.  That is just plain silly.

Kinda like also, hey I drive a civic & a lexus pulls up beside me, then get mad because they have a better car than me.... o.0

We are here for pins and some people got to go to BETTER arcades than others but we liked the arcade we went to

[rob046]

i think suggesting that Scap stopped making tables for the reason you posted is ridiculous.

I think its ridiculous that assuming that the majority of the community telling him to stop doing rendered tables had no effect on why we haven't seen a table ever since or him maybe losing a little enthusiasm.  Of course it would, he's human.  Also I'm not making stuff up here.  I know the reason I stopped doing reel based stuff is due to the above.  Kurt also had these same concerns.  I know because I heard them come right from his mouth.

http://www.vpforums....showtopic=13592

Btw, in that thread I voted for Kurt to keep doing rendered tables, or basically to do what he wanted.  I would say the same to tipito.  But it doesn't mean I don't still have the same concerns I'm posting about.  Also I have more evolved opinions on all this stuff than I did a couple years back.  Obviously things change, you see patterns & trends over time, try to see which way the wind is blowing.

 

I'm not trying to be a stubborn dick here or tell people what they can & can't build.  What I'm trying to get at is that for authors who want to do a table like this, or for users who want to request tables like this... just know what you are asking for.  & that a vote for a FS rendered table is also a vote to leave maybe 2000 desktop users in the dark.  & this hobby needs happy desktop users.  I know it sucks, & it isn't really fair to say, but it just is what it is.  VP was just never made to do tables like this.  It is very much a hack & why I personally felt the need to abandon the method unless things change again in the hobby.  & that is why it has basically zero flexibility.  Now its something we might all be wise to at least consider.  Is pleasing a few worth shutting out the majority?  I'm not saying there is a correct answer, but that is the question.

Edited by rob046, 09 December 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

Im sick of you lecturing everyone rob with these stupid novels of posts


Sorry if that sounds harsh but you aren't always right like you think.

[Noah Fentz]

Rob, we recently had Kurt in chat, and he wants to continue making tables. He's just PAINFULLY busy with his theatrical productions.

 

He mentioned when he retires, he'll have the time.

 

[The Loafer]

blam, end of that one.  Listen Rob, IF every author were doing reel based tables, then i would totally see your point.  But just like when Kurt started making his rendered creation, that did not lead to all authors suddenly dropping doing the tables the old way and taking up pre-rendered tables.  Tables like T2 Chrome aren't about to become the defacto way of making a VP table, it takes a special nutcase (said as a compliment and with reverance Tipoto!) to dedicate the amount of time to make a table like that.  Anyway I am not kicking your butt, I know you are not saying "don't make tables like that", but imho its dramatizing a non-existent issue.

 

I am not surprised about his chat comment, I recall many times his theatrical play commitments were keeping him super busy.

 

signed,

 

The current president of that renderin' fool fan club.

[tipoto]

Yeah... We are spending time to talk about nothing actually

If someday I want to start another table, I will do it with the same method, just because it's the way I feel the most comfortable and I have the most fun. That's it.

Why are we looking for the dark side of this?

[Aurich]

Why are we looking for the dark side of this?

 

Because if I've learned anything about this community we loves us some drama.

[faralos]

I can see Scapinos point though...it is one thing to be able to actually create a beautiful table

 but to be told you 'must' start to make them in FS would be  an insult 

we make pins cause we WANT to,  not for money or glory or anything else

besides our own ego and a yearning to see it gets done (okay maybe some glory!)

I for one still make  4:3 tables or WS ones

only for the fact I don't know how to make them for the FS or cab users

but I do stay away from reels (still don't understand them anyhow!)

so I guess my pins could be rotated given the proper specs for it

Edited by faralos, 10 December 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[TheMcD]

Personally, I believe you can't say "stunning" without taking a look at Lander's Dracula. In my opinion, it's the greatest table ever released for VP8, hands down, and it looks gorgeous. In the VP9 department, I think the Grateful Dead table is the greatest artistic achievement out of all those tables out there. This may sound stupid, but I look more for "aesthetics" than "good graphics", and I pay more attention to when something was made rather than looking for the best in VP. Tipoto's T2 Chrome is an incredible achievement, no doubt, but it simply isn't my style, because nowadays, you kind of have to work for having a table look really "bad" with all the tools available - and I'm really not trying to knock Tipoto's work here although it sounds like I am.

 

Lander's Dracula stands out because it was created in a time where the best looking tables were probably below average looking nowadays (apart from Scap's tables, but I always say he's in a completely different league) and it still manages to be beautiful nowadays - it has aged incredibly well. As for Grateful Dead, it simply has the greatest art I have ever seen on a VP table, recreation or not. The amount of detail is shocking, and it all works so incredibly well, it's just downright drop-dead gorgeous - no pun intended.

 

Just my five cents from a bit of a different POV.

[faralos]

you want a drop dead gorgeous OLDER table?

try Trigon or Novus or Rapid Vienna

all three of these were made back before we had the  neat graphic capability we have today

and there are probably dozens more I don't have in my own personal collection

so don't know about

and Trigon is made in vp6 I think so the knowledge was there

even back then to make gorgeous tables

they look absolutely beautiful for their time and play just as well too!

Novus Has the oddest rule set though but that is what makes it stand out

aside from that weird table layout!

Rapid Vienna is well...just fun to play

but Trigon is my personal fave as it looks great sounds even better and plays just as well

if not better than most newer pins (even ones made in vp9.1.4!)

 

 damn editor takes over a minute to load up today then copies everything twice

ARRGH!

Edited by faralos, 10 December 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[tipoto]

But this is not the point here. We are not debating to know which VP table is the best.

[Aurich]

This may sound stupid, but I look more for "aesthetics" than "good graphics"

 

I wouldn't think that was stupid if we were talking about original works. But this is about recreating physical tables. The author doesn't control the aesthetics (for the most part), that's from the original designer. So yes, "good graphics" count for a lot. That's what maintains the illusion, and honors the original table.

 

What kills me personally is seeing jpeg artifacts on table art. All in the name of what? Shaving off a couple hundred k?

[The Loafer]

I can see Scapinos point though...it is one thing to be able to actually create a beautiful table

 but to be told you 'must' start to make them in FS would be  an insult 

we make pins cause we WANT to...

 

 

Faralos, maybe i am misunderstanding what you typed but when was Kurt told to start making them FS?  That sucks!

[Bob5453]

I remember when people released crappy tables and we liked it.

Maybe that is why there were so many table authors back in 2002....

[Liteuser]

Tipoto's T2 Chrome table is a FS reel table and we all know that tables made with reels can look good. Just have look at Scapino's VP tables they are nice.

Please make more VP tables that use reels. I like those reel tables too. Thanks

 

 

I remember when people released crappy tables and we liked it.

Maybe that is why there were so many table authors back in 2002....

 

or maybe it was the fact that so many tables had not been recreated in 2002. A recreation of a table that has not been recreated is better than nothing.

 

The real question is why was there so many original table authors back in 2002? Is it because not many original VP tables existed?

 

 

 

What kills me personally is seeing jpeg artifacts on table art. All in the name of what? Shaving off a couple hundred k?

 

 

Lots of VP tables have a low file size and still look very high quality and I know that jpeg images can look good if saved right. I'm all for keeping the table file size down. it means my table folder isn't loaded with bloatware.
 

 

Oh and by the way, Rob I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks

[ClarkKent]

I can only add this: T2 CE is one of the most realistic looking tables I have ever seen for VP, even better than the FP version. Even more if you consider the outdated graphics capabilities of VP. For pincab users I think this is one of the most important things, no matter how this has been achieved.

 

I also like to play Roadshow, TOTAN or MM because of its realistic look but I'm sure they could be even more realistic looking with tipoto's abilities...