4027 replies to this topic

[toxie]

Hi!

 

Small sign of life: https://github.com/v...7.4-400-1965b7b

 

10.7.4 beta, and here we need your help. It introduces dynamic ball shadows from bulb lights (e.g. as used in most slingshots).

Are there tables where this leads to artifacts?

Is the performance impact too much on low end systems?

 

Thanks!

[toxie]

Would it be possible to get [FILE OPEN AS READ ONLY] in the window title if a file has been opened that is marked 'read only'?

At present i keep opening files I've saved as read only, make edits and then hit save only to find out it is read only. When that happens,

VPX crashes out, closes and I lose all of my edits. There has only been once or twice where it has failed gracefully and I can unmark

read only on the file and go ahead and get VPX to save my edits.

 

I just added this to the title, good idea!

If you have an exact repro when VPX actually crashes, this would help, as so far i could only reproduce graceful failures (error box when saving), but no crash.

[Wylte]

Hi!

 

Small sign of life: https://github.com/v...7.4-400-1965b7b

 

10.7.4 beta, and here we need your help. It introduces dynamic ball shadows from bulb lights (e.g. as used in most slingshots).

Are there tables where this leads to artifacts?

Is the performance impact too much on low end systems?

 

Thanks!

Well now I'm out of a job!  This is really awesome to see, thank you for bringing it into 10.7!

 

First request - can we have a separate checkbox for these, so they can be disabled per-bulb?  Sometimes an author might want it for performance reasons, or for lights placed for artistry.  And older tables that were designed without shadows in mind might get weird if it's enabled by default.

 

My CPU is overpowered for this, but I'm not seeing any performance impact.

[toxie]

Actually this is a 10.8 feature, and there it is a UI setting at the moment. But as we're not sure yet if it will survive in this form until the final 10.8 release, i thought that backporting this 'simple version' might be a good idea, just to enhance all existing tables out of the box.

 

Do you maybe have examples where lights used for artistry may cause problems? Performance (in theory) should be fine, if at all there should(!) only be a minimal FPS impact.

[wiesshund]

Well now I'm out of a job!  This is really awesome to see, thank you for bringing it into 10.7!

 

 

 

First request - can we have a separate checkbox for these, so they can be disabled per-bulb?  Sometimes an author might want it for performance reasons, or for lights placed for artistry.  And older tables that were designed without shadows in mind might get weird if it's enabled by default.

 

My CPU is overpowered for this, but I'm not seeing any performance impact.

 

I agree

Sometimes you use multiple lights for artistic reasons
One lamp to get the proper glow through effect on the plastics, and another lamp set up differently, to get the intended effect down on the playfield and ball for example.
It would be good to be able to control which bulbs have this effect.

 But yes, lets test the effect itself first and work from there.

Actually this is a 10.8 feature, and there it is a UI setting at the moment. But as we're not sure yet if it will survive in this form until the final 10.8 release, i thought that backporting this 'simple version' might be a good idea, just to enhance all existing tables out of the box.

 

Do you maybe have examples where lights used for artistry may cause problems? Performance (in theory) should be fine, if at all there should(!) only be a minimal FPS impact.

 

LTD blackhole perhaps?

I have lamps for the plastics effect, and a visual lightbulb
and then lamps below those for the actual lighting and ball reflections etc, and it is these lamps that that i run the dynamic ball shadows from
it may look kind of strange if all the lamps that were just for the plastics effect began casting shadows?

[toxie]

Just test, please, and then let me know of tables that look weird.

[Wylte]

Just test, please, and then let me know of tables that look weird.

Just checked a bunch and I think even where it wasn't intended the effect is subtle enough to not be distracting (or even noticeable for most people, probably).

SLAYER (HF 2022) has stacked lighting, but the only "Show Mesh" lights around the slings are at 0.01 height so you get a very thin line cast from the bottom of the ball. Not a deal breaker in the least, and that's the weirdest one I could find

Thank you so much to Niwak and Toxie and whoever else contributed to getting this feature into VPX

[Gravy]

@Toxie, I have a suggestion to add a ball texture rotation option so that it correctly follows table inclination.

See suggestion thread at https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071

An example of the issue shown below:

[jpsalas]

I have only tried a few tables and I can't see any strange artifacts, and the fps are the same. I tested it on my portable which I get about 60fps on most of my tables, so it is not very powerful

[Gravy]

Hi!

 

Small sign of life: https://github.com/v...7.4-400-1965b7b

 

10.7.4 beta, and here we need your help. It introduces dynamic ball shadows from bulb lights (e.g. as used in most slingshots).

Are there tables where this leads to artifacts?

Is the performance impact too much on low end systems?

 

Thanks!

Wow... now that is an awesome feature thanks Toxie. Tried it on a couple of tables with the Ball control roller and it looks amazing and should save a lot of work for table creators who normally implement this manually.

Is there a way to disable it currently in case it does cause issues in some tables?

Edited by Gravy, 18 March 2023 - 10:53 PM.

[toxie]

@Toxie, I have a suggestion to add a ball texture rotation option so that it correctly follows table inclination.

See suggestion thread at https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071

 

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.

It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.
 

Is there a way to disable it currently in case it does cause issues in some tables?

We would like to avoid it, if possible, as lighting in general may(!) change a bit with 10.8. So if you find some table(s) please list them here.

[Gravy]

Noticed some issues with the ball shadows from the bulbs in Flupper's whitewater. The slingshot bulbs don't throw shadows, but the bulbs under the plastic that sits aside the right flipper do seem to work correctly. Maybe he has lit this differently.
Also, note at the top left of playfield at 0:13 how the bulb shadow is too thin for the ball size.

[Gravy]

 

@Toxie, I have a suggestion to add a ball texture rotation option so that it correctly follows table inclination.

See suggestion thread at https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071

 

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.

It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.
 

 

Yeah I understand that it's not a true reflection but I feel the realism could be enhanced if the texture correctly rotated to match the table inclination. The texture used in this case is 2:1 ratio so I assume that it is wrapping around the entire ball, not just a 1:1 image covering the visible ball area. As such, would it be possible to adjust the rotation of this 2:1 texture so that table inclination was matched?

Not sure if you have looked at the thread I linked to above but hopefully I explained it a little better there if you have a moment to read? 

Edited by Gravy, 19 March 2023 - 12:20 AM.

[wiesshund]

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.
It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.

.

Yeah I understand that it's not a true reflection but I feel the realism could be enhanced if the texture correctly rotated to match the table inclination. The texture used in this case is 2:1 ratio so I assume that it is wrapping around the entire ball, not just a 1:1 image covering the visible ball area. As such, would it be possible to adjust the rotation of this 2:1 texture so that table inclination was matched?

Not sure if you have looked at the thread I linked to above but hopefully I explained it a little better there if you have a moment to read? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sort of confused what is being disussed here?

best i can tell, anyways, ball seems to be reflecting things fairly accurately?
have to purposely shove the ball around by hand to examine it.
and what is seen on the top of the ball, the reflection, that is what is in my environment image.

It seems to be doing what i would expect it to do?

 

Edited by wiesshund, 19 March 2023 - 09:31 AM.

[Gravy]

 

The issue is that the ball does not feature a 'true' reflection of the surroundings, and actually not even employs a real environment map, like e.g. the one that is used for the lighting of the table.
It's just a pure 2D image. This was done by design, as artists and users can much simpler pick a ball image this way. The downside is that things like changing camera or table (or in VR) is not reflected (pun intended) in the ball.

.

Yeah I understand that it's not a true reflection but I feel the realism could be enhanced if the texture correctly rotated to match the table inclination. The texture used in this case is 2:1 ratio so I assume that it is wrapping around the entire ball, not just a 1:1 image covering the visible ball area. As such, would it be possible to adjust the rotation of this 2:1 texture so that table inclination was matched?

Not sure if you have looked at the thread I linked to above but hopefully I explained it a little better there if you have a moment to read? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sort of confused what is being disussed here?

best i can tell, anyways, ball seems to be reflecting things fairly accurately?
have to purposely shove the ball around by hand to examine it.
and what is seen on the top of the ball, the reflection, that is what is in my environment image.

It seems to be doing what i would expect it to do?

 

 

Best to discuss it at the following thread but the issue really only becomes evident when table inclination is adjusted to top down cabinet mode (as can be seen in the video I posted in the thread below)

https://www.vpforums...showtopic=51071

[wiesshund]

the environment follows the camera too

 

if you make a really funky environment that you would never actually use on a table
you can see it move also when changing the POV.

Guess that is just how the camera is set up?
I guess it kind of makes sense?

 

You can tinker with different environments to get rid of the pronounced effect you are seeing.

[Gravy]

the environment follows the camera too

 

if you make a really funky environment that you would never actually use on a table
you can see it move also when changing the POV.

Guess that is just how the camera is set up?
I guess it kind of makes sense?

 

You can tinker with different environments to get rid of the pronounced effect you are seeing.

It doesn't really make sense to me as my brain is expecting to see the ceiling reflected in the top of the ball if my viewpoint is directly above the table looking down on the top of the ball (cabinet view), but in this case I am seeing something unexpected.

I feel like when we make adjustments to the POV, it is actually the table itself that is moving in space and the camera viewpoint and environment is staying in a fixed position. Not sure if this is actually what is happening though.

Edited by Gravy, 19 March 2023 - 11:45 PM.

[wiesshund]

 

the environment follows the camera too

 

if you make a really funky environment that you would never actually use on a table
you can see it move also when changing the POV.

Guess that is just how the camera is set up?
I guess it kind of makes sense?

 

You can tinker with different environments to get rid of the pronounced effect you are seeing.

It doesn't really make sense to me as my brain is expecting to see the ceiling reflected in the top of the ball if my viewpoint is directly above the table looking down on the top of the ball (cabinet view), but in this case I am seeing something unexpected.

I feel like when we make adjustments to the POV, it is actually the table itself that is moving in space and the camera viewpoint and environment is staying in a fixed position. Not sure if this is actually what is happening though.

 

 

It makes sense from the render engines standpoint.
The table does not budge.
Imagine the table is in the middle of a big sphere.

The camera is mounted in a gantry suspended from the inside of the sphere

The environment is projected in the sphere, centered around the camera mount.

The light source is suspended on a mount in front of the camera

I doubt that is entirely accurate from a programming standpoint, but it kind of gives a visual idea.
If you go drive around in freelook mode a bit, you will see what i mean (especially when you lose the table)

 

But you can use different environments to get rid of that effect you are seeing.
You have to play around some and see what works on a given table.

 

Try JP's chrome ball as an environment sometime

[Gravy]

It makes sense from the render engines standpoint.

The table does not budge.
Imagine the table is in the middle of a big sphere.

 

The camera is mounted in a gantry suspended from the inside of the sphere

The environment is projected in the sphere, centered around the camera mount.

The light source is suspended on a mount in front of the camera

I doubt that is entirely accurate from a programming standpoint, but it kind of gives a visual idea.
If you go drive around in freelook mode a bit, you will see what i mean (especially when you lose the table)

 

But you can use different environments to get rid of that effect you are seeing.
You have to play around some and see what works on a given table.

 

Try JP's chrome ball as an environment sometime

 

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one as the end result is something that looks unnatural to my eye. I agree that the effect is mitigated by using different ball textures/environment but I think the underlying issue still exists.

A question though, let's say you are in a room suspended directly above the pinball table, looking directly down on the top of the ball. For the sake of the argument, you are invisible so can't see your own reflection. What would you expect to see reflected in the dead centre of the top of the ball, the ceiling or the windows of the room?

I'm not sure if you checked the video I posted?

Edited by Gravy, 20 March 2023 - 03:53 AM.

[toxie]

As said, don't take the balls as reference at the moment. These do not feature 'real' view dependent reflections, but are more comparable to simple 2D images.

This could be changed, so that one needs to supply a environment map similar to what is used for lighting, but at the moment this is not the case.