1002 replies to this topic

[BigBoss]

I have converted about 100 tables so far. If anyone wants some maybe we can make a patch or such. Or if a couple test tables are needed, I'm happy to provide. Most of JPSalas tables work very well with very little mods needed. The main procedure has been load the new physics to backdrop, which include flippers. Then adjust flipper angles back down. Should be 70 end angle for Williams, 68 stern/Sega/de. These are often too high due to old physics shoot up middle issues. Then you have to make sure maxballsize is not in the vb script. Finally is fix plunger strengths. Test and adjust any misbehaving saucers.

A few tables had some other oddities, but this is uncommon. Getaway had a right outlane drain post implemented as a flipper. When the ball hit this, VP froze up. Deleting this solved it with no other noticable downside.

Other tables had some balls disappearing when exiting ramps and such. Worked around by shortening the ramp so the ball drops sooner. But these types of problems are more uncommon.

I agree officially releasing tables to work for the new physmod sucks and should be avoided. But the problem is that the new physmod version of VP is the only playable version we have, in my opinion.

[mukuste]

Wow, 100 tables. Pretty impressive.

 

So you didn't adjust bumpers? Didn't you find them a bit too weak usually?

 

If you could provide a case where the ball reproducibly disappears when exiting a ramp, that would be useful. I haven't seen that bug yet.

[DJRobX]

Wow, 100 tables. Pretty impressive.

 

So you didn't adjust bumpers? Didn't you find them a bit too weak usually?

 

If you could provide a case where the ball reproducibly disappears when exiting a ramp, that would be useful. I haven't seen that bug yet.

 

I see it often with the left Indiana Jones Ramp (that dumps into the left inlane).    Not every time, but several times.

[mukuste]

I have been avoiding reporting things as bugs that are table specific. On Independence Day and Apollo 13, the ball never appears in the shooter lane with this version. Anyone have an idea how to fix (at the table level) or why?

 

Apollo 13 seems to have the same issue we encountered a while back when some collision code was changed. It has a ramp which is exactly as wide as a ball, which I think is the cause. To fix this, select the StartRamp and make it a bit wider, e.g., Start width and End width both to 55 (up from 50).

[xzotic]

I've started converting all my tables as well. I agree with BigBoss, once you have tried these physics you can't go back to normal VP. It's like going from normal VP back to FP physics. They are chalk and cheese and they literally do become unplayable. Funny how the human mind works - once it has a better reference it will pick out the flaws of the previous incarnation forever going forward.

 

The issue of 'holding back' these physics until a much later version (e.g.: VP10) could be problematic. At least at minimum it will create extra work for people like Bigboss and others in converting settings and testing the changes for any new table release/update. Maybe that's not a big issue but it seems an awful waste of everyone's time and at the end we may all have different variances of the tables. My vote is to get these physics ASAP into the current version. Yes I read all the issues on this but perhaps an interim release to a v9.5 would work for the final of this beta thread and then work on VP10 with all the additional bells and whistles. At least table authors can specify official 9.5 versions for the new physics and the community can use much more realistic physics from here on in.

 

Agreed there are still a few things to iron out before this branch becomes 'release ready' in terms of the physics but it's getting there quickly with the fantastic work Mukuste is putting into it (Thank you sir you truly are remarkable).

 

A couple of things:

1. Minor bug - The export physics doesn't export the "1" for the physics constant so when you reimport you need to manually change the constant to one. No biggie. 

 

2. I'm not 100% confident that the ball spin behaves correctly but perhaps this is a combination of getting the surface 'grip' right. It seems like it changes the direction of the ball too much and potentially un-naturally? I've observed a few times where I thought suddenly the table had gone on a slant as the ball wized off on a 20 degree angle from a spin. Something doesn't seem quite right with it in my mind.

 

3. The flipper accuracy is something to marvel and one of the main reasons you can't go back to the old VP once you have tried this version. You can now actually aim and hit things with regular consistency. I am however having issues with making shots on the slight angle at the end of the flipper. This could be poor skill on my behalf but it just seems that the physics off and near the tip of the flipper don't behave as well as the remainder of the flipper? Is this even possible with the way the code now is? Perhaps this has something to do with BigBoss's suggestion regarding changing down the flipper angles. I'll give that a try.

 

Overall these new physics are a massive improvement. I was previously resigned to the fact that VP will give way to Unit3D in the near future however with these new physics settings VP could have a significant renewed lease of life. Depends if it can actually make it into an official release build without getting bogged down in release policy and politics. Time will tell.

 

For now I'm back to modifying every table one by one and enjoying each one as I do it. The difference truly is amazing. If you are reading this and haven't tried it yet then GO DO IT NOW!

[BigBoss]

 
 
3. The flipper accuracy is something to marvel and one of the main reasons you can't go back to the old VP once you have tried this version. You can now actually aim and hit things with regular consistency. I am however having issues with making shots on the slight angle at the end of the flipper. This could be poor skill on my behalf but it just seems that the physics off and near the tip of the flipper don't behave as well as the remainder of the flipper? Is this even possible with the way the code now is? Perhaps this has something to do with BigBoss's suggestion regarding changing down the flipper angles. I'll give that a try.
 

The flipper angles on real tables at the very edge of the flipper is equally hard. I have found absolutely no blind spots on these flippers. They behave perfectly in aiming regard, in my opinion.  The ball spin is awesome also. I had a weird multiball where one ball hit the flipper going left, stopped and rolled against gravity up the flipper real fast (just like happens in real games sometimes). It was the first time I've ever seen that in any simulation.
 
The flippers on almost all tables (that played sort of ok on the old VP9) had to be adjusted a lot to a pitch way too high because of the shoot at the center issues in VP9. Re-setting these to normal values really helps shooting all shots pretty well. Williams flippers are slightly less pitched than sega/stern/de. Gottlieb are higher pitched normally.
 
For flipper strengths, it seems 2800 or so is about where I'm falling on most tables, with a flipper mass (speed parameter) of 1.0. 
 
 
 
 

Wow, 100 tables. Pretty impressive.
 
So you didn't adjust bumpers? Didn't you find them a bit too weak usually?
 
If you could provide a case where the ball reproducibly disappears when exiting a ramp, that would be useful. I haven't seen that bug yet.

 
Yes. Sega Star Wars Trilogy FS v1.02. The right ramp for sure does it. I moved the end point on the right ramp (Ramp130) from Y position of 1486.546 to  1400.546 and it was totally solved. There were a few others, but this one was pretty consistently reproducible. The bop FS has the same problem if you plunge the 100k skill shot.
 
The bumpers are a little weak. The slings are fine. I don't find the bumpers being slightly weak to really be that bad. The only one so far that's been problematic is the right bumper on safe cracker, which I had to increase or it would get into an endless bump state which required a nudge to get out of.

Edited by BigBoss, 19 April 2014 - 02:02 PM.

[gogo69]

i have been playing with test tables and while playing with it i produced so many balls that they pile up and don't drain.

so far so good

my question is why are the balls on the lowest point of the pile stuck ( no movement ) and the balls in the middle (which show no movement ) are still spinning like crazy (spin is infinite)

did you notice that ?

not a complain just what i noticed....

Edited by gogo69, 19 April 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[ClarkKent]

Ramps seem to be a problem very often. I've also encountered it on the Cyclone table. And on STTNG (Delta ramp only). But not on White Water.

 

I can not imagine why this happens? The ramps are a massive construction without holes or something.

Edited by ClarkKent, 19 April 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[mukuste]

It would be a massive help for me if people could extract problematic bits of geometry (like ramps which send the ball flying off, the whirlpool ramp on Whitewater, and so on) into standalone, minimal test tables which produce this behavior automatically by shooting the ball from a kicker. What teppotee did for the AFM ramp was a perfect example, it allowed me to track down the bug on these kinds of ramps in a very short time. It's really a great time saver for me and lets me focus on the important issues.

[BigBoss]

I'm actually thinking flipper angles should be more like 70/290 stern and 72/288 Williams. This also seems to make the ball a bit harder to stop on the flipper more like a real pin.

Edited by BigBoss, 19 April 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[unclewilly]

Although I think the physics are great and I understand that some people feel they can not go back to the old physics.

What I think people don't understand, is the devs have been working for months now to make the dx9 port fully backwards compatible at the request of the community, because they didn't want a version of vp with no tables available for it. Adding the new physics to the initial dx9 port would effectively change the number of tables from in the thousands to 0. As some of you are familiar enough with the editor that you can modify tables, the large part of the community can't do this. And as far as uploading your modified tables that is a whole other can of worms as you would need to seek author permission for the mods.
Just my 2 cents.

Oh and feel free to share any of my table withing this thread that have been modified. As all my tables are free to mod.

One question about the physics as I haven't had time to test. Has the collision on primitives been looked at.

Is it possible to have the collision on a primitive move with an animated primitive such as the drac ulna on monster bash or a raising or lowering flat ramp.
I know the collision works if they remain stationary.

[webslinger2203]

My vote for physics mod is to wait till VP 10. Thank you to the developers and table authors for all you have done so far making VP what it is today. I'm truly appreciative for your efforts. As for those who really want the physics mod implemented into VP9/DX9, I understand the want for it however it will slow down the progress of moving forward. My two cents, if you want it on the tables you downloaded bad enough, I think it's your responsibility to mod the tables to your liking. The future is bright for VP, I am extremely happy with what has been provided so far.

[BuckoBundy]

+1 on unclewilly's comment above... compatibly version first, then go wild on a vp10 version.

 

Oh and feel free to share any of my table withing this thread that have been modified. As all my tables are free to mod.

 

Which better than the awesome Monster Bash PC Killer Edition (not so killer with DX9 ) 

 

http://www.filedropp...ndr21fs-physmod

 

This one plays a lot faster than the original, just cause I like it that way. I'm sure it can be tweaked further/better but since the new physics version can change at anytime, I think this will have to do.

 

Thanks UW, Mukuste, other devs, and the whole community.

[perplexicon]

Well I've just had a day rinsing loads of well-maintained machines, and with that fresh in my mind I've hopped on the physmod to compare... and it still rocks. Totally impressed Pretty much 95% of the way there in terms of what I feel is that pinball vibe that I so desperately crave! That last 5% is kind of wishy-washy stuff that I'm sure will be addressed as progress is made, and most of that will be when dynamic lighting is added and I can crank the ambient lighting down and play by the glow of the lamps

 

These are just some general observations rather than demands for improvements!

* The scale of the ball feels not quite... right? Maybe fractionally too small? Possibly an optical illusion or something that'll be fixed with the 3D ball mesh that's in progress, or I'm mad, OR It's the lack of reflections on the ball that makes it look unusual? (Maybe there could be an option in the future to render things with the ball proportions as the scale reference, if that makes any sense at all?)

* Holes/kickers/stuff going under the table - the ball will just slot right in on VP, never to be rejected, which does not match my experience on the real thing I don't know if these actually have any depth on VP, but I'm assuming not at the moment?

* Bounciness of ball on inlane/outlane posts - currently a bit flat in VP, not the nail-biting bouncefest of the real thing. I'm guessing this'll be tunable with the elasticity values on objects in the near future though!

 

Other than that though, the new physics look like they're gonna scratch an itch that commerical pinball games can't, and I'm pretty convinced that a virtual cab build is a worthwhile thing to do once VP10 is properly underway! Hooray for advanced maths simulations!

 

[Gamester]

My vote for physics mod is to wait till VP 10.

 

+1  I know we live in a society that thrives on instant gratification, but I think it makes a lot of sense to wait in this case...

[Shaneus]

If you could provide a case where the ball reproducibly disappears when exiting a ramp, that would be useful. I haven't seen that bug yet.

Apologies for the lack of detail/knowledge (I'm far from being experienced with VP beyond using it to play things) but the right wireform exit to the right inlane on JP's FS No Fear *sometimes* causes the ball to disappear. I'm not sure how to isolate just that part of the table for auto-plunge, but hopefully this little detail helps

 

This is the table:

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=6018

 

Sometimes it does it when starting the first mode, other times it'll take a few balls to see it (if at all). Seemingly random.

[BigBoss]

We need a common core.vbs entry that does a good job sensing when a ball search might occur and issues a destroy ball / create ball.

[Horrible]

I have tried the new physics and can't wait to use them on all tables, however my vote goes for an official VP10 release with them incorporated and then allow authors to publish modified (official) versions of their tables. This goes against what my heart desires but is guided by my head and the various arguments for and against in these posts.

As for self updating tables, If a universal (and very simple) patch could be developed then great. Maybe a simple set of instructions that will help those members of the community not up to editing tables to any degree of complexity.

Amazing stuff, keep up the excellent work!

[BuckoBundy]

 

If you could provide a case where the ball reproducibly disappears when exiting a ramp, that would be useful. I haven't seen that bug yet.

Apologies for the lack of detail/knowledge (I'm far from being experienced with VP beyond using it to play things) but the right wireform exit to the right inlane on JP's FS No Fear *sometimes* causes the ball to disappear. I'm not sure how to isolate just that part of the table for auto-plunge, but hopefully this little detail helps

 

This is the table:

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=6018

 

Sometimes it does it when starting the first mode, other times it'll take a few balls to see it (if at all). Seemingly random.

 

Here is a test table that shows how the ball falls through the playfield when it exits the ramp.

http://www.filedropp...m/ballthroughpf

 

I couldn't get this to reproduce on the test table at first. Turns out that the slope affects whether you get the bug or not. When min & max slope is at 6,5 it shows the bug, but values of 6 or 7 don't. The Global difficulty level is set at 0,5 which also effects the slope from what I understand.

[slashbot]

Anyone knows howto fix the strenght of the kicker (movie right of the middle ramp)in creatures of the black lagoon?
When u shoot movie the ball dont come out of the hole anymore.
Its sw17, i checked the script for .kicker sw17 and changed some settings but could not fix it.
People who want exchange physics exports or some physic tables pm me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD