47 replies to this topic

[chas]

where is the new mod for core vbs scripts with the new tilt nudge?
cant find it.

[mxd]

I think if you go to hyperpin forum and look at blurs signature you may find it.

[rob046]

where is the new mod for core vbs scripts with the new tilt nudge?
cant find it.

I just took care of this myself & you should be able to do the same. Since that portion of blur's code also has my own custom tilt settings in it (which is kinda the point I guess), I just copied that nudge section of code from the old core.vbs & pasted it into the new one (overwrite the existing code of course). Though often times the vbs get updated but the core.vbs stays the same, & for those times, simply don't copy over the new core.vbs, no point to doing that.

Man I really wish everybody used blur's nudge code. I don't even know if he's updated it to the better version that I now have, which I pieced together with bits of code he gave later in the release thread. Such as code for nudge direction & separate values for left/right & forward nudging. I also set the counterforce in mine, which his code supports but I don't think it is enabled by default. I forget where mine is set to. Probably close to 100%. Also I think there was some extra code that flipped the front nudging around from the VP default that pushes the ball up in mid-air, which is totally unrealistic.

I wish everybody could just use the same core.vbs I have. I feel it is much more like real pinball nudging, & I now never have to mess with nudging on any tables anymore since this overrides any code in the tables. & its the same for every table. If everybody used this same core, we could compare scores & they might even come close to matching real life scores compared to some of the default nudging I've seen that makes tables way too easy.

Btw I set my side nudging to 1 to 1.1 or so. Front I think is 1.1 to 1.2. Everybody should do this.

Edited by rob046, 29 June 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[CaptainNeo]

so there is better nudging code out there, with more realistic depending on angle? I think the stuff I use right now only is left and right, and just moves the ball across the screen at an angle. In RL you nudge one way, and it moves over, but when the table moves back, the ball pretty much goes right back where it was. Hence why you have to nudge at the split second, you need to grab the ball or hit a specific element.

[chas]

CNeo>>>>>so there is better nudging code out there, with more realistic depending on angle?
chas>>>>>yes.....i think blur mod the core then posted it here about 1yr ago.....the mod core has the same L/R nudge and angle similar as in the tables script for direction and angle.....

mxd>>>>>I think if you go to hyperpin forum and look at blurs signature you may find it.
chas>>>>>hyperspin is a big place......i spent a little time looking around......i found blur here.....
http://www.hyperspin...i...rname&ltr=B
where is it blur??.....

Edited by chas, 29 June 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[rob046]

I was going to attach mine, but 1 setting I"m trying to find & tweak is the force of the counterforce. Like he has where you can set 0 to 100 percent, but 1 thing I don't like too much is how quick the ball jerks back on the counterforce. Or... that seems to work OK for side to side nudging, so another thing & maybe the best thing to do would be if there is a way to only set counterforce on the side to side nudging. Think about it, cuz there is no "counterforce" when the ball is rolling down the PF & you nudge forward.
If I can do that then I'll likely be 100% happy with nuding. But as it is now I"m still 95% happy, & its super convenient to know every table nudges the same. After all, in real life all tables pretty much nudge the same for you. So that is how it should be instead of all these different tables having to put in individual settings due to how bad default VP9 nudging is.

Edited by rob046, 30 June 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[chas]

robo>>>>>I was going to attach mine, but 1 setting I"m trying to find & tweak is the force of the counterforce
Chas>>>>did you create a modified working tilt nudge in core?.....if it is anything like the table script tilt nudge it should be ok.....post it.....i would like to get a look at it while im waiiting for blur to show up.. ...im pretty sure i DLd it but dunno what happened to it.....come on blur, where are you with the modified core you posted about 1yr ago??

Edited by chas, 30 June 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[CaptainNeo]

I agree nudging should be universal with all the tables. Every machine reacts the same, it's the rubber and playfield in the game, that makes the nudging react differently.

[rob046]

I'm attaching blur's version that I tweaked further, for those who use it make sure to back up the original core (just in case you might want to go back to it). But I should note that it seems some basic nudge settings will be overwritten by whatever the individual table has set. Blur explains this in his original thread. Basically, blur says this in regards to what the custom core does with tables that already have a nudge system like the noah/jp system...
when used with my new core.vbs first nudge will act normally (only with counter force and fixed direction for front nudge)

My settings here don't even have fixed direction for front nudge, but basically he is saying that only counter force applies, as well as any direction settings that my custom version of his code has but I don't think his original version had this (other than the front nudge fix he mentioned). I removed that front nudge fix (then added his custom direction code for all directions) because it really wasn't any better than how it was, & if you use a small enough nudge strength to begin with, it really doesn't matter much. Also this way the visual nudge feedback works properly, so I went with that. There is no avoiding it, even when not touching an object the front nudge will send the ball up or down a bit. You just gotta pick the lesser of 2 evils there, I chose to send it up because when using front nudge the ball is usually falling down, thus the extra downward strength of the nudge just exaggerates it further. IDK, I spent a little time on this but I'm not sure if there is a better option or way to deal with this, but since I use small enough nudge strengths this really isn't an issue.

My custom vbs has at least a couple different parts of code than blur's original that I'm not even remembering, what I do know... Mine features a nudge direction that you can set for each direction which I think does override all tables. I go with 0 front, then 60 & 300 for the sides. Mine also features nudge strength, however in most cases it doesn't come into play because most tables have their own strength which will override whatever is in this core.
I also added a custom ReturnPercentage code, this basically is what controls the counter force.

Blur already had a ReturnPercentage in there, I just took it a step further. His covered all directions. I didn't like the fact that even the forward nudge had counter force to send the ball back up (or down), often times it could look pretty awkward & it messed with how individual tables how the front nudge setting. So I definitely wanted to remove it from the front, so I just added some code to where you could give each direction its own amount of counter force. So I set front nudge to have none, then 100% on the sides. Now let me not that 100% doesn't really mean the ball ends back up where it started. If you nudge the ball off an object, it certainly shouldn't return where it was. & if you nudge in mid air, the ball will basically do nothing, thanks to side counter force, which is how it should be & how it is in real life.
Far as I know my custom code here is the 1st to do something like this, so let me know what you guys think of this.
Oh, & now the original "ReturnPercent" setting will not work. Now it is set to 100, but it doesn't matter, it will only work on the individual settings, so ignore the 1st universal setting. However, hopefully you guys are happy with how this is now. I think you should be. Then you don't need to mess with it.

Edited by rob046, 02 July 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[StevOz]

Well there is a better method to override the VP9 nudge, which rascal came up with and that is to place a large trigger in the middle of the table to reduce or disable the nudge where a nudge should have little or no effect.

[rob046]

Here is my custom version of blur's core.vbs that goes with my long winded post above...
I also documented the top of the core to let people know when it was modified (after 3.36), why it was modified, & that it isn't an official core.vbs.
I'm really hoping this, or something like this, can become official. I mean, seems to me like if we all used it then there isn't even a need to do the whole "nudge system", though I could be wrong. Either way it would still be nice, in order to override that awful VP9 nudging, & this makes it much more like VP8 nudging.

Well there is a better method to override the VP9 nudge, which rascal came up with and that is to place a large trigger in the middle of the table to reduce or disable the nudge where a nudge should have little or no effect.

Interesting, although the point of this core.vbs is so that we never have to mess with tables in the editor. It adds the fix to everything by default & even helps tables that already use a nudge system, & it can also default all the nudge direction preferences to all tables. I got like 300 VP9 tables & I definitely don't feel like adding that trigger thing to all of them. However, when I'm working on a table in the future, I definitely might want to check that out. Surprised I didn't come across it before.

Attached Files

•  core_3.36_blur_code_rob046_tweaks.zip   21.3KB   70 downloads

Edited by rob046, 02 July 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[toxie]

I'm attaching blur's version that I tweaked further

Hmmm.. you actually didn't attach it, it seems.. Would be interesting to test it!

[rob046]

I'm attaching blur's version that I tweaked further

Hmmm.. you actually didn't attach it, it seems.. Would be interesting to test it!

I forgot that straight vbs can't be uploaded, so I just zipped it & uploaded it above. Sorry about that!

[toxie]

cool, thanx!

[toxie]

some quick feedback from fooling around with it yesterday evening: so far it worked well for me, don't know yet though if i like it more than blurs original version, will need more time to playtest.. but thanx a lot for sharing!

[rob046]

some quick feedback from fooling around with it yesterday evening: so far it worked well for me, don't know yet though if i like it more than blurs original version, will need more time to playtest.. but thanx a lot for sharing!

Well blur's original version doesn't even have counter force enabled, I don't think. He only added the ability to add counter force but people need to set it themselves. Again, that is why I'm sharing this. I do think some people won't like it because it will make games tougher, but I guarantee it is much more realistic. For those that want realism, grab this core. For those who don't, stick with the defaults.

On most tables, the only noticeable change that the core I posted will provide is only the counter force, since strength is overridden by table code. Yeah my nudge directions might be just a tad different, but that probably won't be something that anybody would notice, it doesn't stand out. Like I said above, this pretty much gives you VP8 nudging, which is what everybody has wanted for a long time. I just worry that people have gotten too used to the easier VP9 nudging & don't want to go back!

That said, you certainly don't need to like my core. But even if you don't find it to be perfect, I feel like it is still the best option out there for VP9.

Edited by rob046, 04 July 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[StevOz]

I can pretty much say it does not give you any thing like the VP8 nudging, the only way to get that is to reintroduce the original nudge code from the VP8 source into the VP9 source or modify the VP9 nudge code by possibly adding a third vector to address the ball vs table movement, thus for cabinets where the ball needs to move for visual reasons, that can be refined and for desktops it can be adjusted so the ball doesn't move at all in the first instance.

It's a sterling effort to try and correct the VP9 nudge, though the ball should not move at all by any perceivable amount when nudged if it does not come in contact with any table objects, let alone change it's direction, which does occur now, just moving or VP9 nudging the ball back again a few microseconds later is not anything like the VP8 nudge.

[rob046]

I can pretty much say it does not give you any thing like the VP8 nudging, the only way to get that is to reintroduce the original nudge code from the VP8 source into the VP9 source or modify the VP9 nudge code by possibly adding a third vector to address the ball vs table movement, thus for cabinets where the ball needs to move for visual reasons, that can be refined and for desktops it can be adjusted so the ball doesn't move at all in the first instance.

It's a sterling effort to try and correct the VP9 nudge, though the ball should not move at all by any perceivable amount when nudged if it does not come in contact with any table objects, let alone change it's direction, which does occur now, just moving or VP9 nudging the ball back again a few microseconds later is not anything like the VP8 nudge.

Like I said, its the best option I know of without having to edit every table individually, & its the closest to VP8 nudging that I know of. I'm not sure what you are talking about here though. It sounds like you are saying that in VP8 the ball doesn't move at all when not touching objects, but it absolutely does for me. VP8 has counter force just like this vbs does, & the direction doesn't change on this core.vbs either when not in contact with an object, or if it does it is extremely minimal as I have 100% counter force on side nudging. So I'm not sure how you can say it is nothing like VP8 nudging. I suppose the forward nudging might be a little off but even there it seems fine to me since I use low strengths. If nudged ball movement seems more exaggerated to you, maybe try lowering the nudge strength in the tables themselves, like an even 1.

Even in real life the ball moves on the PF when nudging then snaps back unless it hits an object (since the table moves under the ball), so I actually think it is pretty accurate to have the counter force that simulates this as well.
I would like more thoughts on this vbs though. 16 people so far grabbed the attachment. Would be nice to hear from a few more.

Edited by rob046, 05 July 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[rob046]

OK, maybe this one will be a little better with the forward nudge. I added 50% counter force to forward nudge. It was 0%. Those who use lower strengths might not notice much, if any change, but I'm thinking this could be a little better for everybody, certainly not worse.

Attached Files

•  core_3.36_blur_code_rob046_tweaks.zip   21.3KB   17 downloads

Edited by rob046, 05 July 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[StevOz]

I can pretty much say it does not give you any thing like the VP8 nudging, the only way to get that is to reintroduce the original nudge code from the VP8 source into the VP9 source or modify the VP9 nudge code by possibly adding a third vector to address the ball vs table movement, thus for cabinets where the ball needs to move for visual reasons, that can be refined and for desktops it can be adjusted so the ball doesn't move at all in the first instance.

It's a sterling effort to try and correct the VP9 nudge, though the ball should not move at all by any perceivable amount when nudged if it does not come in contact with any table objects, let alone change it's direction, which does occur now, just moving or VP9 nudging the ball back again a few microseconds later is not anything like the VP8 nudge.

Like I said, its the best option I know of without having to edit every table individually, & its the closest to VP8 nudging that I know of. I'm not sure what you are talking about here though. It sounds like you are saying that in VP8 the ball doesn't move at all when not touching objects, but it absolutely does for me. VP8 has counter force just like this vbs does, & the direction doesn't change on this core.vbs either when not in contact with an object, or if it does it is extremely minimal as I have 100% counter force on side nudging. So I'm not sure how you can say it is nothing like VP8 nudging. I suppose the forward nudging might be a little off but even there it seems fine to me since I use low strengths. If nudged ball movement seems more exaggerated to you, maybe try lowering the nudge strength in the tables themselves, like an even 1.

Even in real life the ball moves on the PF when nudging then snaps back unless it hits an object (since the table moves under the ball), so I actually think it is pretty accurate to have the counter force that simulates this as well.
I would like more thoughts on this vbs though. 16 people so far grabbed the attachment. Would be nice to hear from a few more.

The table moves under the ball, the ball having a mass, vector and velocity, counters any friction and is not effected to any perceivable degree on a almost frictionless surface, this is basic physics 101..

Also you have real pinball machines and I have played at least as many games as you have on real pinball machines, they do not defy the laws of physics as the VP9 nudge does.

The best option is to fix it in the source code.

Although as I have already stated this fix is as best can be done with the entirely flawed VP9 nudge as it is.

Edited by StevOz, 05 July 2012 - 07:02 AM.