88 replies to this topic

[jonez]

any suggestions to setting flippers for medieval madness ??

Edited by jonez, 13 February 2011 - 04:22 PM.

[TheKeef]

Having spent time on this issue, I can tell you its a matter of proper shot ability, followed by the ability to properly pass, and also to try judging the angles of the shots to be like the designer of the original intended. Then you want to approximate swing time and maybe tweak the oblique for your preference and also realism. Then you have to decide do I want this to play like new? Do I want it to have any give or to be solid. Look at the Fathom video I posted awhile back, and you spend a day or two simulating just the give and power in the video. Not even all the other stuff I mentioned. Then take your settings to other tables, and you will see.

It's apples to oranges when it comes to real flippers, the VP ones are no different.

People want a universal setting, and I say, tough titty.

Edited by TheKeef, 13 February 2011 - 06:53 PM.

[Bob5453]

People want a universal setting, and I say, tough titty.

I say, you are correct.

No settings will ever satisfy everyone for every table or even any single table. It is great to try new settings, so I'm always all for people posting their settings in any table thread. You don't have to know any scripting or graphic skills to play with the settings in the editor, so there are no excuses for anyone to complain about flipper settings on any table.

[xzotic]

People want a universal setting, and I say, tough titty.

It's not about having consistent settings. It's about having realistic settings. Where the flippers behave as they should under the laws of physics with all differences from table to table considered. THAT is the problem - there are settings that are simply not realistic in that they do not conform to natures laws of physics. Some people can notice this A LOT, some can't.

There is definitly a need for different settings for different makes, years, age etc however there are certain things a ball and a flipper in the real world won't do and some tables are set like that. If you don't see it then it is no problem. If you do see it and experience it then seeking tweeks to the settings to fix the errors is worthwhile.

We are all for improving the overall pinball experience. Shutting the doors on an issue just because you don't see a problem is like a blind man saying he doesn't mind a 100w bulb shining directly in his eyes.

[BigBoss]

AFM is a table that oblique is needed to be able to hit and destroy the saucer.
im pretty sure i have strength on 5, speed on 0.08 and oblique on 2.
works well and able to hit lower targets.
using oblique on some tables makes it very difficult to hit lower playfield targets.
with oblique up i need to let the ball roll to end of the flipper then swing.
on these tables i have oblique on 0.
most flipper settings are on strength 5, speed 0.05-0.075 maybe a little higher as in AFM.
AFM/ARFM might be the only table i use oblique.

>>With oblique on 0, you cant ever hit the center gate unless you crank the strength up so high.<<
i dont have the speed cranked up that high.
the authors set the strength of some tables at maybe 1 then cranked up the swing speed to 0.275.
it was very difficult to hit the lower playfield targets.
the flippers were rocketing the ball to fast.
the flipper settings were not right.
strength of 5 and speed of 0.05-0.075. maybe speed of 0.1 at the highest on the tables with an upper flipper on the side so i could jet the ball through the upper side ramps with the upper flipper.
works well.
a few tables with 5 strength was too strong.
lowered to about 3 with the speed on 0.05.
worked well.

Attack from mars is a great example as I have done a ton of comparisons side-by-side to my real table. With the flippers on its stock settings, which were slow speed and high strength, the game was *way* too easy. I got 31 billion and conquered mars in my first two games. (Something I have yet to do on a real table). For one thing, it was very unrealistic. Every ramp shot was a full ramp shot. It never went half way up the ramp and back down (as it does in the real game). With a more noah-like flipper setting, the game scores immediately became similar to the real table as did the game play. The higher speed and lower strength seems to be the key to more realistic flippers.

Edited by BigBoss, 14 February 2011 - 06:59 AM.

[SJ2571]

I believe that with proper tweaking, the flippers can be set to work pretty darn close to the original machine.

I totally agree with Rawd here. He created the VP version of "Triple Strike", and owns the real machine. My father also used to own it, and I played it EXTENSIVELY when I lived at home as a child and teenager (over 15 years of constant playing). I can vouch for the fact that the flippers on Rawd's version pretty much match the real thing 100%. The things I used to do on the real machine, I can also do on his VP; every time, without fail. It's awesome!

[BigBoss]

I believe that with proper tweaking, the flippers can be set to work pretty darn close to the original machine.

There's some sort of delay that cannot be adjusted out no matter what. Everyone that comes to my machine notices it after playing one of the regular machines that sit next to it. It takes about 3 games to get used to it and then you tend not to notice it so much. It used to screw me up going from visual pin to regular and back, but not so much anymore. Still, it would be nice to understand the cause of this delay and fix it. I wonder if the delay is in the routine that senses button presses and triggers the flipper action. I may actually take a peek at the source here.

[Noah Fentz]

I believe that with proper tweaking, the flippers can be set to work pretty darn close to the original machine.

There's some sort of delay that cannot be adjusted out no matter what. Everyone that comes to my machine notices it after playing one of the regular machines that sit next to it. It takes about 3 games to get used to it and then you tend not to notice it so much. It used to screw me up going from visual pin to regular and back, but not so much anymore. Still, it would be nice to understand the cause of this delay and fix it. I wonder if the delay is in the routine that senses button presses and triggers the flipper action. I may actually take a peek at the source here.

We are currently developing a leaf-style button that I have found to be perfect in both feel and response.

What style of buttons are you using?

[Rawd]

I believe that with proper tweaking, the flippers can be set to work pretty darn close to the original machine.

There's some sort of delay that cannot be adjusted out no matter what. Everyone that comes to my machine notices it after playing one of the regular machines that sit next to it. It takes about 3 games to get used to it and then you tend not to notice it so much. It used to screw me up going from visual pin to regular and back, but not so much anymore. Still, it would be nice to understand the cause of this delay and fix it. I wonder if the delay is in the routine that senses button presses and triggers the flipper action. I may actually take a peek at the source here.

I think the biggest cause of delay might have to do with the type of television used.

My Sony TV in my living room is about 4 years old. It is a 60hz TV, and I won't even try to play Wii or Sony Move games on it. The lag is too great. My buddy just purchased a 120hz LCD and there is no lag in games at all. Some TV's can be put into 'Game' mode to try to combat this... I don't notice a difference on my cabinet with game mode enabled. My cabinet TV is also a 60hz, and I do experience a tiny bit of lag. It is almost unnoticeable, until I play my real machine again (just as you mentioned). I think oooPlayer1ooo might be able to comment more on this, as I think he works in the industry and know a lot about televisions.

My cabinet uses micro-switch buttons. Maybe leaf switches are faster.. or seem faster (because you don't feel the 'click')

[BigBoss]

I believe that with proper tweaking, the flippers can be set to work pretty darn close to the original machine.

There's some sort of delay that cannot be adjusted out no matter what. Everyone that comes to my machine notices it after playing one of the regular machines that sit next to it. It takes about 3 games to get used to it and then you tend not to notice it so much. It used to screw me up going from visual pin to regular and back, but not so much anymore. Still, it would be nice to understand the cause of this delay and fix it. I wonder if the delay is in the routine that senses button presses and triggers the flipper action. I may actually take a peek at the source here.

We are currently developing a leaf-style button that I have found to be perfect in both feel and response.

What style of buttons are you using?

I have standard microswitches hooked up to happ control arcade concaved buttons. You think the button has something to do with it? I also notice it using a keyboard. Do you have a collection of real machines? It's blatantly obvious going back and forth between them. If you don't its not so obvious.

[Noah Fentz]

Yes, I own two machines. A White Water and a WWF Royal Rumble.

I get no lag whatsoever using our commercial-grade monitors and these leaf-type switches.

I HAVE gotten comments about lag on flipper settings with less than .855 speed, though. Even the gurus at the Expo made mention of this. I had to load up my Breakshot to sway the naysayers that the 'lag from UltraPin' wasn't present in the VirtuaPin.

It's probably the same issue the UltraPin had ... slow flipper speed.

I've gone as high as .955 on flipper speed, so maybe try experimenting with even faster speeds and less power, and see if that feels any better.

[StevOz]

Really, analogue cannot be perfected within a digital realm, be honest you know this is true...

It's a trade off, speed vs strength vs oblique correction, more speed the greater need for correction and the gravity/slope of the situation extenuates this, just saying like it can never be.

Edited by StevOz, 15 February 2011 - 02:35 PM.

[007]

I'm probably the one with least experience, but I've gone as low as 0.05 strength on some tables. In my humble opinion Noah's settings are the most realistic, and my scores reflect this. Whereas I'm usually able to get highscores, replays and extra balls without much effort, his settings gives me scores very close to what I would achieve on a real machine, i.e. total rubbish.

Edit: That probably sounded sarcastic. That wasn't intentional. I really think it's realistic.

Edited by 7, 15 February 2011 - 03:19 PM.

[007]

I've been trying out Noah's settings on many different tables over the last few days. They are very good, but some things I would like to suggest are:

1. Recoil Velocity: 32 - 36, maybe needs increasing (in small increments) on some tables to avoid the "Springy" flipper catch.

2. Oblique Correction; I would like to suggest that a setting equal to the flippers angle be used here. Example:
Flipper at 90 degree angle to the playfield. Measure the angle of one side of the flipper to the horizontal line, like so:



Flipper angle is here 4.25 degrees. Oblique Correction settings would be 4.25

3. I would like to suggest a Gravity Constant of 1.55 [Edit: and Dampening Speed at 75]

These are just suggestions based on what I believe feels right. I'm not saying they're necessarily correct.

Edited by 7, 22 February 2011 - 08:27 AM.

[BigBoss]

I've been trying out Noah's settings on many different tables over the last few days. They are very good, but some things I would like to suggest are:

1. Recoil Velocity: 32 - 36, maybe needs increasing (in small increments) on some tables to avoid the "Springy" flipper catch.

2. Oblique Correction; I would like to suggest that a setting equal to the flippers angle be used here. Example:
Flipper at 90 degree angle to the playfield. Measure the angle of one side of the flipper to the horizontal line, like so:



Flipper angle is here 4.25 degrees. Oblique Correction settings would be 4.25

3. I would like to suggest a Gravity Constant of 1.55

These are just suggestions based on what I believe feels right. I'm not saying they're necessarily correct.

Interesting suggestion on the oblique. I may play with that. As for recoil velocity, I've been using 0. On a real pinball if you hit the flipper button over and over quickly, it does not travel back to resting position. In fact, it hardly travels at all doing that. This is most closely simulated by recoil velocity of 0. Note: I define a "real machine" as a 1990-2005 era williams/stern type machine.

[007]

Might I suggest Screen Protractor from http://www.iconico.com/protractor/
The trial version measures up to 22 degrees, more than enough for flipper measuring.

Edited by 7, 19 February 2011 - 07:02 PM.

[BigBoss]

We are currently developing a leaf-style button that I have found to be perfect in both feel and response.

What style of buttons are you using?

Thank you. That was it. I replaced my microswitches with leaf buttons and the delay is gone. Wow this is the first time I've actually experienced it correctly, too. I had my dad play a game or two on my cabinet. He was hitting the ball (before he couldnt hit the ball due to the delay coupled with the fact that he really sucks at pinball, so it was a great test). I had a couple others try it and they no longer noticed the delay.
The microswitch clicks at the end of the button press while the leaf switch registers the trigger at the beginning of the stroke (based on how it's adjusted, mine are sensitive). the 0.955 speed + leaf switches solved the problem. So far everyone playing it agrees.

Now to order replacement switches to replace the ones I cannibalized out of Pirates of the Caribbean

I think the biggest cause of delay might have to do with the type of television used.

Rawd, thanks for the input. I think I'd agree with this as a possibility, too. But in my case, I have a very fast NEC presentation monitor. The monitor isn't the cause.

Bottom line: use leaf switches in your cabinets for flippers!

[007]

I'm very interested in hearing some responses to my settings. I'm by no means an expert, but I think I'm in the ball park, as it were.

These are my settings for JPSalas Back to the future [BTTF_v1.4_JPG-PINS]
I'd be delighted if someone would try it out, and give me feedback.
(I know it's a VP8 table, but it plays really well in VP9 in my humble opinion.)

Backdrop View:
Gravity Constant: 1.55
Contact Friction: 0.0025
Contact Scatter Angle: 0
Dampening Speed: 75
Dampening Friction: 0.95
Physics Max Looptime: 0
- - -
Table View:
Tbl Slope Min Difficulty: 6
Tbl Slope Max Difficulty: 6
Global Difficulty Level: 0
- - -
Flippers
Physics
Speed: 0.955
Strength: 0.07
Elasticity: 0.65
Scatter Angle: 0
Return Strength: 0.25
Recoil Velocity: 32
Power Law: 2
Oblique Correction: 4.07
- - -

I've been trying out Noah's settings on many different tables over the last few days. They are very good, but some things I would like to suggest are:

1. Recoil Velocity: 32 - 36, maybe needs increasing (in small increments) on some tables to avoid the "Springy" flipper catch.

2. Oblique Correction; I would like to suggest that a setting equal to the flippers angle be used here. Example:
Flipper at 90 degree angle to the playfield. Measure the angle of one side of the flipper to the horizontal line, like so:



Flipper angle is here 4.25 degrees. Oblique Correction settings would be 4.25

3. I would like to suggest a Gravity Constant of 1.55 [Edit: and Dampening Speed at 75]

These are just suggestions based on what I believe feels right. I'm not saying they're necessarily correct.

[Noah Fentz]

Any way I can get you to do this on the Whirlwind or T2 I did with UR?

It would be much easier for me to get a feel for the difference, since I logged HOURS and HOURS of playtesting on those two tables.

I'd be interested to see how the Oblique Correction plays out.

Thanks, if you can.

[007]

Any way I can get you to do this on the Whirlwind or T2 I did with UR?

It would be much easier for me to get a feel for the difference, since I logged HOURS and HOURS of playtesting on those two tables.

I'd be interested to see how the Oblique Correction plays out.

Thanks, if you can.

I'll get right on it! I may not be the most experienced player, but I'll give it my best.