88 replies to this topic

[bodedrums]

i do agree bout the flippers but then...just a few days ago a couple of very gentle guys here told me how to fix it ,so i been experimenting a bit.i tried just in a few tables(still lot of work to do with the rest!)and the playing got much better!! ,in others may take some time to find the right settings(or "feel" if you want to put it that way).but i think its worth!!at least....yeah,some tables comes with the most ridiculous flipper setting(popeye!really weak flippers!almost imposible to play! )but,now i got the info i needed,no problem!

[faralos]

i still have yet to play any table with weak flippers! and currently I have over 300 tables including demo ones and skeletons! many of the times you get a weak flipper/plunger is when you try to play a vp8 table in vp9. some vp8 tables may play in vp9 (ones with no ramps or wider ones same as for the ball lanes and plastics; some tables may look ok in vp9 but because of the difference in the actual physics the plunger may not get the ball all the way up the shooter lane, same goes for the weak flippers

Edited by faralos, 01 February 2011 - 03:51 AM.

[BigBoss]

2) The most recent release of T2. As most of you know, the most important and frequently needed shots to beat this table are the left and right "security level" ramps. On a decently maintained machine most of us can get those ramp shots often enough to advance the game and be enjoyable. Not on VP, at least not for me, and I would find it hard to believe I'm the only one with this complaint.

On a positive note, I HAVE been able to tweek and adjust the settings (and am learning more everytime I do!!!) to get reliable enough "shot trajectory expectancy" (thats a little joke there, son). FYI, two of the most common changes that lead to a world of improvement are adjusting the starting position of the flippers down 1 point and making sure the start/end point is at least 55 to 60 points.

Can you please share the settings you've changed?

By the way, do the VP flipper seem to lag a little bit behind real ones to everyone?

[Noah Fentz]

By the way, do the VP flipper seem to lag a little bit behind real ones to everyone?

That's mainly due to most settings being more power than speed. In 'perfect' flipper settings, the speed far outweighs the power. This allows for flipper tricks, too, as the ball isn't 'all powered up'.

I prefer the settings to be somewhere in this neighborhood ...




... and those are based on quite a bit of studying flippers to come up with those settings.

[ANDROID]

I happen to think that the ramp shots on T2 are very doable. I have loaded up 10 shots in a row a bunch of times if you also include the 5 million jackpots (which to me seems the quickest way to repeat the jackpots within the 20 second timer), That means the natural rolling shots, not trap and shoot. The problem is the right ramp is a little tougher to hit. It is routinely doable to load 3-7 ramp shots in a row. I have left drain issues, and top of slingshot dead bounces SDTM. Realisticly, the right ramp has a little stretch that takes over if you can make it halfway to the back. I find it harder to hit with a trapped/ then rolling shot. The problem is that the rolling shot is pretty much with the ball slightly past the end of the flipper, and on a rolling shot, you have a tendency to hit a millisecond early. If the opening to the right ramp were slightly bigger, I am sure the scores would increase. I have a few games in the mid 100,000,000's, and I haven't mastered the gun shot for multiball. The bounciness of the flippers is something that I wasn't used to, but I don't own or have played a T2 in the last 3 or 4 years to make an accurate accessment.
I have noticed larger nudging capabilities with VP9 as compared to VP8. I think they went too far in that manner. Of course it isn't outrageous like FP, but I think it could be tamed down to smaller nudge distance, maybe 40% less IMHO. but thats for another discussion.

After playing alot of real pins, I find: some slack in the flippers, sometimes a bit sticky, and really awkward ball speeds because of the declining solenoid power or looseness of the flipper itself. In VP/VPM at least the wear factor in flippers isn't a problem, I tend to rely on the authors version, because I would like to compete on the same level as everyone else when it comes to High Scores.
I still remember the feel of new 3" gottlieb flippers on my favorite 70 ems. Very consistent game to game, when new.

Edited by ANDROID, 01 February 2011 - 10:48 PM.

[xzotic]

i still have yet to play any table with weak flippers! and currently I have over 300 tables including demo ones and skeletons! many of the times you get a weak flipper/plunger is when you try to play a vp8 table in vp9. some vp8 tables may play in vp9 (ones with no ramps or wider ones same as for the ball lanes and plastics; some tables may look ok in vp9 but because of the difference in the actual physics the plunger may not get the ball all the way up the shooter lane, same goes for the weak flippers

I find this issue a lot after correcting weak floating table physics. I guess if you don't fix the base physics on your tables you won't have an issue with weak flippers. Once I fix that then the flippers need bumping up in strength. However BEFORE I do that I test the flippers in their weak state. This usually shows if the settings are garbage or not. Well configured flippers still operate properly even when the table is jacked up in difficulty but they are just weak. Other tables the flippers just don't react properly at all highlighting the issue.

I think it is an extremely complex area and Unclewilly reminded me of some of the complexities such as flipper tricks which make some settings really come alive. In fact it was on Unclewilly's Firepower that a friend specifically noted the realism from the flipper tricks from one side to the other.

It seems to me that this is an area that deserves some further research. Are all those flipper settings documented anywhere yet? I know someone was creating a manual - it would be nice to know exactely what each one does.

I also don't think anyone is having a go at table makers here. Instead this is just an opportunity to push the realism envelope more by exploring all possibilities. After all the flipper response is a massive part of the overall experience. Get it right and its a significant part of what makes a table 'feel right'.

[faralos]

Noah, do you then reset all your tables to those settings? even originals? should we all start to adjust our tables to that base setting chart you have? It would make all future tables universal, but again isn't each table different? shouldn't each one be tested? Or is that a starter chart and from there you re-adjust?

Edited by faralos, 01 February 2011 - 12:32 PM.

[unclewilly]

Farlos, I use settings close to those as a base to start with but adjust them per table to what seems most accurate. It is really table dependent. I couldn't use the same settings on all tables it wouldn't be right for some tables.

[StevOz]

See we all have different feelings and opinions on flipper settings. I tend to think those kind of speeds are way too fast as to me they are visually unrealistic, now I'm not talking about Bob speed flippers here, something closer to 0.1 which tends to mean a strength of 2+.

My reasoning is not only that it visually looks closer to real world flippers, lower speeds also mean less, to no oblique correction is required and I find greater oblique correction values can lead to some unrealistic back flips. Also the VP flipper is a collection of pixels moved in increments from the start angle to the end angle, make that speed too fast and your computer may very well skip a render/flipper collision event causing some inaccuracy in the flip.

Also there are the other parameters that do have as great effect, such as start/end angles and the flipper length/base/radius. Combine all these factors, oh and let's not forget table slope/gravity now and then there is the actual table layout, I'd say there simply isn't ,nor can there be any near 'perfect' settings it's all very much depends on the table being created or recreated as the case maybe.

Edited by StevOz, 01 February 2011 - 01:56 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

Visually unrealistic? Really? Reeeaaalllyy? Closer to .855 would probably be even more realistic, in fact, and that is what I've most recently adopted.



Oblique correction is also absolutely necessary.

The settings posted are for modern tables. Naturally, older Ballys and Gottlieb would be different from those settings.

[StevOz]

OK if you say so, not really easy to see much from the video, nor know for sure anything about it's validity, not saying otherwise, just saying it proves very little. Though you are right oblique correction is needed to a degree or two and I've found if you need to go any further it can cause strange things to occasionally occur and oblique correction seems to be directly related to flipper speed, mind you swing arc and flipper shape also has a lot to do with that as well.

Edited by StevOz, 01 February 2011 - 02:58 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

... swing arc and flipper shape also has a lot to do with that as well.

That I can agree with.

I'm finding it hard to believe you can't see near-perfect sync between flipper and actual footage, though Steve. I spent a lot of time on getting it right.

Oh well.

I think it's a bit delusional that the subject of proper flipper settings is being considered a matter of opinion. There is right and not right ... no grey area at all to me. I guess it's because I play a crapload of real pinball these days that I can see the difference. Every ranked pinball player, pinball designer, and pinball purist who has played anything in my cab with flippers slower than that have referred to it as lag.

I have to believe there's something seriously to that.

[kruge99]

Speaking of Oblique Correction on flippers, could someone who knows what the setting means, take a screenshot of the default "new" table in VP and using a graphic program, put a kind of "pie chart" graph on the flipper with the various settings please? For example, with a setting of 2, what is the "corrected" trajectory of the ball coming off the flipper versus a setting of zero? Sorry but the text descriptions I've read are baffling this blond Canuck...


Best Regards,
Todd.

[xzotic]

... swing arc and flipper shape also has a lot to do with that as well.

That I can agree with.

I'm finding it hard to believe you can't see near-perfect sync between flipper and actual footage, though Steve. I spent a lot of time on getting it right.

Oh well.

I think it's a bit delusional that the subject of proper flipper settings is being considered a matter of opinion. There is right and not right ... no grey area at all to me. I guess it's because I play a crapload of real pinball these days that I can see the difference. Every ranked pinball player, pinball designer, and pinball purist who has played anything in my cab with flippers slower than that have referred to it as lag.

I have to believe there's something seriously to that.

Noah, I must be missing something here. Sure you have perfect sync with the real table in terms of flipper speed and return (well done by the way on attention to detail) however what does that have to do with the specifics of proper ball trajectory (with specific regard to direction/angle of ball exit)? Sure the speed will be right on but the specific direction the ball takes along the flipper length at any given 'flipper level' could be anything. It sounds to me that the mysteries behind Oblique Correction are probably more the source of experienced inconsistencies in directional trajectionary issues.

I agree with Kruge99. If someone can provide further insight into exactely how this setting works I'd be very interested.

[Noah Fentz]

... swing arc and flipper shape also has a lot to do with that as well.

That I can agree with.

I'm finding it hard to believe you can't see near-perfect sync between flipper and actual footage, though Steve. I spent a lot of time on getting it right.

Oh well.

I think it's a bit delusional that the subject of proper flipper settings is being considered a matter of opinion. There is right and not right ... no grey area at all to me. I guess it's because I play a crapload of real pinball these days that I can see the difference. Every ranked pinball player, pinball designer, and pinball purist who has played anything in my cab with flippers slower than that have referred to it as lag.

I have to believe there's something seriously to that.

Noah, I must be missing something here. Sure you have perfect sync with the real table in terms of flipper speed and return (well done by the way on attention to detail) however what does that have to do with the specifics of proper ball trajectory (with specific regard to direction/angle of ball exit)? Sure the speed will be right on but the specific direction the ball takes along the flipper length at any given 'flipper level' could be anything. It sounds to me that the mysteries behind Oblique Correction are probably more the source of experienced inconsistencies in directional trajectionary issues.

I agree with Kruge99. If someone can provide further insight into exactely how this setting works I'd be very interested.

The increased speed and decreased power makes for more realistic flipper feel. Again, to real pinball players trying VP for the first time, anything slower gives them the impression the flippers are lagging. At the same time, it improves accuracy, IMO. The sync video was in response to the comment those speeds are visually unrealistic.

In the T2 I did with UncleReamus, I can hit every shot accurately, do flipper passes, and have adopted those settings as my standard for tables of that era.


On the subject of oblique correction, the feature increases center shot capability. The higher the value, the more to the center the shot will tend to be. For example, if you hit a trapped ball with the right flipper in VP8, it would go left no matter what you did, and center shots were impossible. Oblique correction fixes that inability.

[jpsalas]

I'll need to take a look at those flippers, Noah . I'm not 100% satisfied with the different settings I have used. They or either shoot to the center or to the sides, but I have fixed them so they play ok in the tables I made, but as I said they could be better

JP

[BigBoss]

By the way, do the VP flipper seem to lag a little bit behind real ones to everyone?

That's mainly due to most settings being more power than speed. In 'perfect' flipper settings, the speed far outweighs the power. This allows for flipper tricks, too, as the ball isn't 'all powered up'.

I prefer the settings to be somewhere in this neighborhood ...




... and those are based on quite a bit of studying flippers to come up with those settings.

Thank you for posting these settings. I've spent the last 3 hours playing with them, and so far, I haven't found any tables that they haven't improved by these. It's really a different take than most table designers are using. High speed, low power vs low speed and high power.

[xzotic]

By the way, do the VP flipper seem to lag a little bit behind real ones to everyone?

That's mainly due to most settings being more power than speed. In 'perfect' flipper settings, the speed far outweighs the power. This allows for flipper tricks, too, as the ball isn't 'all powered up'.

I prefer the settings to be somewhere in this neighborhood ...




... and those are based on quite a bit of studying flippers to come up with those settings.

Hmmm... I put these on a table and to be honest didn't really like them. Too bouncy off the flipper and a couple of unexpected directions. Some aspects seemed like an improvement but because of a couple of weird angles and the bounce these are not for me personally.

I ported across Unclewilly's firepower settings and oh joy everything sweet. Maybe I'm just used to them? Don't know put these settings play best for me IMO:

[BigBoss]

By the way, do the VP flipper seem to lag a little bit behind real ones to everyone?

That's mainly due to most settings being more power than speed. In 'perfect' flipper settings, the speed far outweighs the power. This allows for flipper tricks, too, as the ball isn't 'all powered up'.

I prefer the settings to be somewhere in this neighborhood ...




... and those are based on quite a bit of studying flippers to come up with those settings.

Hmmm... I put these on a table and to be honest didn't really like them. Too bouncy off the flipper and a couple of unexpected directions. Some aspects seemed like an improvement but because of a couple of weird angles and the bounce these are not for me personally.

I ported across Unclewilly's firepower settings and oh joy everything sweet. Maybe I'm just used to them? Don't know put these settings play best for me IMO:

It really needs to be bouncy. That's one complaint I have had in the physics when comparing to my real machines, the ball bounces way more on the real machine. Now it's closer with those flipper settings. I am going to try 0.855 and see if it's better as Noah said.

[chas]

Despite the remarkable strides VP has progressed (and in an impressively short amount of time!), I'm chagrined to see that no great debate or discussion is occuring regarding what IMHO is VP's truely greatest flaw/weakness: the inability/difficulty to get the virtual flippers to operate like a real pin.
Lets face it, if the user of any pin is unable to consistently put the ball where he wants it to go on the playfield, it defeats the vision and ingenuity of the designers and renders most pins-especially the ROM based pins-literally unplayable and/or unwinable. Some examples:

1) The very recent release of the exquisitly recreated pin Independence Day has a major feature called F18 HurryUp, where the player has to hit the far left orbit for a timed period. Now, as an aging veteran of real pins, while not perfectly, I can direct a pinball on a consistently regular basis to whatever part of the playfield I would like it to go. This shot for instance would entail allowing the ball to roll almost to the end of the flipper and bingo, ball goes to the far opposite side of the playfield, exactly where I need it to go to advance the game and make another run at a high score. But EVEN WITH THE (and thanks for the another flippers adjustment in 1.3 creator!) FLIPPER SETTINGS TWEAKED AGAIN, I cannot reliably or consistently make this fairly simple shot. I had to spend hours mucking with the settings to get the pin to play like a real one.

2) The most recent release of T2. As most of you know, the most important and frequently needed shots to beat this table are the left and right "security level" ramps. On a decently maintained machine most of us can get those ramp shots often enough to advance the game and be enjoyable. Not on VP, at least not for me, and I would find it hard to believe I'm the only one with this complaint.

On a positive note, I HAVE been able to tweek and adjust the settings (and am learning more everytime I do!!!) to get reliable enough "shot trajectory expectancy" (thats a little joke there, son). FYI, two of the most common changes that lead to a world of improvement are adjusting the starting position of the flippers down 1 point and making sure the start/end point is at least 55 to 60 points. I'm starting to wonder if there literally might be TOO many adjustment fields that is creating the inconsistentcys. I realize our pins use artificially manufacturered physics, but real pins don't have half the adjustments as virtual. Is it possible that it needs to be simplified/consolidated in some way?

So there you have it, all of course, IMHO so please, no hate mail. I am just so grateful for these tables to play for free from all you generous and talented members that I feel awkward bitching about anything. Its just that this has been the most frequent and time consuming flaw I keep encountering on each new download. One more thing, I vividly remember two tables that had dialed in flipper settings that required no adjustment on my part: the most recent Monster Bash and Twilight Zone, GOOD JOB bros!!!

Am I alone with this frustration? Please indulge me!

Humbly submitted,

Grundman

did you read the vp9 users guide?
the flippers will work ok on the right setting.
try changing the STRENGTH to 5.
Swing SPEED starting at 0.05 - 0.075 maybe a liitle higher untill you get the desired performance.
OBLIQUE on 0.
elastisticity on 0.3 - 0.5

BIG BOSS:
you are cheating using obliqiue other than 0.

Edited by chas, 03 February 2011 - 12:42 AM.