88 replies to this topic

[grundman]

Despite the remarkable strides VP has progressed (and in an impressively short amount of time!), I'm chagrined to see that no great debate or discussion is occuring regarding what IMHO is VP's truely greatest flaw/weakness: the inability/difficulty to get the virtual flippers to operate like a real pin.
Lets face it, if the user of any pin is unable to consistently put the ball where he wants it to go on the playfield, it defeats the vision and ingenuity of the designers and renders most pins-especially the ROM based pins-literally unplayable and/or unwinable. Some examples:

1) The very recent release of the exquisitly recreated pin Independence Day has a major feature called F18 HurryUp, where the player has to hit the far left orbit for a timed period. Now, as an aging veteran of real pins, while not perfectly, I can direct a pinball on a consistently regular basis to whatever part of the playfield I would like it to go. This shot for instance would entail allowing the ball to roll almost to the end of the flipper and bingo, ball goes to the far opposite side of the playfield, exactly where I need it to go to advance the game and make another run at a high score. But EVEN WITH THE (and thanks for the another flippers adjustment in 1.3 creator!) FLIPPER SETTINGS TWEAKED AGAIN, I cannot reliably or consistently make this fairly simple shot. I had to spend hours mucking with the settings to get the pin to play like a real one.

2) The most recent release of T2. As most of you know, the most important and frequently needed shots to beat this table are the left and right "security level" ramps. On a decently maintained machine most of us can get those ramp shots often enough to advance the game and be enjoyable. Not on VP, at least not for me, and I would find it hard to believe I'm the only one with this complaint.

On a positive note, I HAVE been able to tweek and adjust the settings (and am learning more everytime I do!!!) to get reliable enough "shot trajectory expectancy" (thats a little joke there, son). FYI, two of the most common changes that lead to a world of improvement are adjusting the starting position of the flippers down 1 point and making sure the start/end point is at least 55 to 60 points. I'm starting to wonder if there literally might be TOO many adjustment fields that is creating the inconsistentcys. I realize our pins use artificially manufacturered physics, but real pins don't have half the adjustments as virtual. Is it possible that it needs to be simplified/consolidated in some way?

So there you have it, all of course, IMHO so please, no hate mail. I am just so grateful for these tables to play for free from all you generous and talented members that I feel awkward bitching about anything. Its just that this has been the most frequent and time consuming flaw I keep encountering on each new download. One more thing, I vividly remember two tables that had dialed in flipper settings that required no adjustment on my part: the most recent Monster Bash and Twilight Zone, GOOD JOB bros!!!

Am I alone with this frustration? Please indulge me!

Humbly submitted,

Grundman

Edited by grundman, 29 January 2011 - 04:02 PM.

[Rawd]

I believe that with proper tweaking, the flippers can be set to work pretty darn close to the original machine. The problem is most of the authors don't have the real machine sitting beside them to match the table. Flippers are all different sizes and weights and strengths depending on the table and manufacturer. It also greatly depends on the design and slope of the machine. Sometimes authors are lucky enough to have someone with the real machine beta test the table, and give pointers on the physics for the flippers. It is good that you have discovered how to tweak them yourself. I have tweaked quite a few flippers on tables myself, and the variables can seem overwhelming to understand. Though I prefer this over other pinball emulators that only give the option of "weak, medium, strong".

Edited by Rawd, 29 January 2011 - 04:09 PM.

[Sabbat]

It is frustrating going from table to table and having dif flippers. I know the shot you speak of on ID4 and it is not the easiest shot on nealtron's recreation but it can be timed and mastered...I can get it fairly often when I try.

Noah Fent'z "silverball mania" though quite enjoyable for me the majority of the time the difficulty comes from that I'm battling the flippers.

JPsalas's flippers have a godmode cheat code on them

Bob's flippers are too slow

Unclewilly's flippers are sometimes just funny.


It totally goes from table to table and its all in the authors own ability to try and bring us the most enjoyable experience they can. In no way am I dissing anyones flipper settings that i just mentioned I'm only saying my experience about them and the differences that one may like / dislike, i know i've certainly uploaded some table mods without a doubt crappy flipper settings but it is a learning progress for everyone. I take everyones flipper settings as a new game and new skill talent i'll have to develop on each table to work with them if that makes any sense.

[PainkillerAlice]

Settings have a lot to do with how they feel compared to the real life version. As Rawd had posted, most authors don't have access to much if any of the real life machines (and in excellent running condition to boot) to do a comparison with. So we do the best we can with what is available to us.

Edited by Practicedummy, 30 January 2011 - 01:12 AM.

[xzotic]

I agree that this is a real problem.

It's on my list to go through all my tables and 'tune' all the random flipper settings. Some tables are near unplayable.

This problem is very similar to the gravity, ball speed, difficulty issues I have with many tables. I still see tables being released with a gravity constant of 1. There is no weight to the ball with this setting. The ball just floats around the table at a single constant.

Back to the flipper issue. I agree that all machines have different flippers, strength, size, rubbers etc HOWEVER the fundamental direction of the ball leaving the flipper should almost be constant given certain criteria.

For example a ball rolling down and then across the face of the flipper (ie no direct hit/bounce onto the flipper) should be able to be directed with some "shot trajectory expectancy" (Love that - lets call it STE for short!). Yet many tables will shoot the ball out at some weird angle when doing this shot. Which means every other shot that comes down the table and actually hits the flipper is a lucky dip shot at best.

I believe that like the gravity issues there must be a set of base constant variables for flippers that should be the same base for every table (primarily for direction). Then table authors can add to the settings to adjust for flipper strength, speed, bounce etc depending on the table.

This would be a big improvement.

My current favourite is Firepower. This table has about a 95% STE and is a joy to play!

[Rawd]

Ya. With the current value adjustments, you can make the ball do some pretty ridiculous and physically impossible things. Because of the drastic differences that can be made in the settings, many tables will feel quite a bit different from one another.

The problem is.. if these values are taken away, and a standard is put in place, it would most likely mean that all tables would be 'broken' and have to be readjusted and updated for the new standard.

Also.. If anyone can recall the 'Great Flipper Debate' back in the summer of 2010, you will remember that people have very different and passionate ideas of how real flippers should react.

Edited by Rawd, 31 January 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[Bob5453]

Yes, let's go with a standard of strong, medium and weak flipper settings.

Most people tend to forget that the author who creates the table gets to choose his settings. Suggestions in release threads are always welcome and sometimes used in future releases or they start a flaming war, either way, fun is had by everyone.

I like to see my flippers return to the start position in my tables, so the return speed is a little slower. Some tables the flippers are instantly up and instantly down..... I never saw that once back in the 60's....

Edited by Bob5453, 31 January 2011 - 06:06 AM.

[faralos]

On a positive note, I HAVE been able to tweek and adjust the settings (and am learning more everytime I do!!!) to get reliable enough "shot trajectory expectancy" (thats a little joke there, son). FYI, two of the most common changes that lead to a world of improvement are adjusting the starting position of the flippers down 1 point and making sure the start/end point is at least 55 to 60 points. I'm starting to wonder if there literally might be TOO many adjustment fields that is creating the inconsistentcys. I realize our pins use artificially manufacturered physics, but real pins don't have half the adjustments as virtual. Is it possible that it needs to be simplified/consolidated in some way?

I understand you are probably talking only about the recreations but if the options for flippers are taken out then how do we original table authors adjust the flippers? My dogtown wip has 6 flippers in the table (two being hidden). All of them are set to different strengths (the lower PF, since it is much smaller has much weaker flippers on it, as do the two hidden ones. if this option were to be taken out we'd never be able to make custom tables! Also, to have a flipper set at an angle, one must be able to adjust both its size and start and end points! also most of the times a flipper is used for a gate as it's easier and it looks cooler if it's set to a slow 'up' or 'down' movement, then it looks like the gate is actually moving to open or close. If the flipper options are taken out none of these things would be possible anymore.

Now on to the physics side of it all, we make the walls and every single other object in VP. Unlike FP where everything is pre-rendered the walls in vp can be set to have different 'elasticities' i.s. it can either act like a wall or a slingshot with a unlimited amount of force if so desired (force being the speed that the ball leaves the wall at!). But as for weird physics on the angled shots, that I've yet to see in VP. But, i remember when I first started in FP that at times the physics rules were tossed out the window! I recall one shot that hit the slingshot at a 45° angle only to travel straight up the playfield hitting the back wall of the pin! But at times someone will by accident (or on purpose, depending on the table) set one of the wall points as a slingshot, instead of the default, so the ball may act strange upon hitting that one length of wall...

[Rawd]

I like to see my flippers return to the start position in my tables, so the return speed is a little slower. Some tables the flippers are instantly up and instantly down..... I never saw that once back in the 60's....

On my real EM, it is tough to see the flippers return. It is pretty much instant.

[tiltjlp]

Of course, you don't have those sorts of flipper issues when you play a flipperless table by druadic or me. Just a friendly reminder.

[Sabbat]

Of course, you don't have those sorts of flipper issues when you play a flipperless table by druadic or me. Just a friendly reminder.

lol, i knew you or draudic would come in and say something to that effect

[FDSystems]

.

Also.. If anyone can recall the 'Great Flipper Debate' back in the summer of 2010, you will remember that people have very different and passionate ideas of how real flippers should react.

Since then, our greatest authors all use their own "best flipper settings ever" ! ......

[tiltjlp]

Of course, you don't have those sorts of flipper issues when you play a flipperless table by druadic or me. Just a friendly reminder.

lol, i knew you or draudic would come in and say something to that effect

I wasn't going to, but I didn't want to disappoint you.

[Flying Dutchman]

Indeed .. not the same as a real Pinball Machine, but not always with a negative impact though ..

As where a real one can be quite 'static' at times, the Visual version can smooth up the Table sometimes.
There's Tables in real life I don't fancy touchin' more than once, where as these particular Tables in their Virtual appearance I simply play
over-and-over again!

Virtual vs Real .. there will always be a difference, no matter how hard we try .. gives us something to work on ..

Cheers,
FD.

[Bob5453]

I like to see my flippers return to the start position in my tables, so the return speed is a little slower. Some tables the flippers are instantly up and instantly down..... I never saw that once back in the 60's....

On my real EM, it is tough to see the flippers return. It is pretty much instant.

I was afraid someone would actually check it out. I guess I just like seeing the flipper return. My settings are usually just taken from a previous table and it takes so long to build and test a table, that you can get use to about any settings. I remember trying some "perfect" flipper settings last year and it wasn't all that all exciting.

Some tables just have settings that feel great for that table, but if you copy them to another table, the layout and angle of the return lanes seems to make them not feel so great.

[Rawd]

I like to see my flippers return to the start position in my tables, so the return speed is a little slower. Some tables the flippers are instantly up and instantly down..... I never saw that once back in the 60's....

On my real EM, it is tough to see the flippers return. It is pretty much instant.

I was afraid someone would actually check it out. I guess I just like seeing the flipper return.

Damn Bob! I was all prepared for an argument...

[unclewilly]

The issue for me when setting the flippers is having them able to make the appropriate shots, but also allowing them to do the little tricks like flipper passing. Sometimes we just have to have a happy medium. I am lucky as i have a tester who i think does a pretty good job of setting the flippers for me.

[Bob5453]

Great Video Rawd. Those are "perfect" flippers. I think it's the sound that makes me think the return speed should be more visually slower.

I watched that video about 5 times. Thanks man!

[Rawd]

Great Video Rawd. Those are "perfect" flippers. I think it's the sound that makes me think the return speed should be more visually slower.

I watched that video about 5 times. Thanks man!

[faralos]

great now i have yet one more thing on my mind...to set the return speeds ...gee it's always something... like the cow said, "If it isn't one thing it's an udder!"