48 replies to this topic

[malachi666]

Hey Guys,

 

I am just curious how hard it is to convert VP9 tables to Physmod 5 tables.  Is it worth doing?  I like the PM5 tables I have played thus far, it feels as close to real as I have experienced.  I read somewhere that PM5 is a stop-gap until VP10 is finalized... and no I am not trying to start an argument here, I am just curious is all.  

 

There are a couple of tables I would love to try and convert for my own use... but I would like to know if it is possible, and if so, is it worthwhile?

 

Thanks

[gtxjoe]

Go for it!  Converting a table to Physmod for play testing takes less than a minute.  Play it and then tweak it to your liking, during play you may find no issues, or some issues that just need adjustment.  General steps
 
Open Table
Click on Backdrop button.
In Options window, in Physics, change Gravity Constant to 1 and Playfield Friction to 0.05 (Adjust this if you want more/less ball spin when hitting objects)
Unclick the Backdrop button
Select flippers and change settings: Mass 1, Strength around ~2200 to 2800 for modern SS tables or ~1300 for older EM tables. Elasticity 0.8-0.9
Increase the force on Slings, Bumpers and Kickers by 20%
Increase the elasticity on any rubbers or posts that you think should have more rebound.
 
You can compare values with the Physmod tables that you like...

Edit: updated with EM flipper strength values

Edited by gtxjoe, 13 December 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[xenonph]

So this is all you need to do to convert to PM5?

And Tables will run correctly using the PM5.exe?

Great info gtxjoe!!!

[Ben Logan]

So this is all you need to do to convert to PM5?
And Tables will run correctly using the PM5.exe?
Great info gtxjoe!!!

Great question. Curious myself.

[malachi666]

Thanks GTX!  I love your work by the way great job and thank you for the help!

Sorry, I assume by Mass you mean Speed?

[Ben Logan]

Bringing up an old thread here. I'd love to try converting a few VP9 EMs to physmod for my own use. So far no luck following the instructions above. Anyone have further suggestions?

I actually really like the physmod ball physics (though I enjoy VPX even more). For example, Mystery Castle physmod version is still an absolute favorite.

[TNT2]

Maybe it's because I have minimal VP skills but some tables convert very easily while other tables do not. Ramps don't always work correctly after changing the physics and there other issues that appear and require modifications of the tables. 

[tgx]

Great information indeed. Some 'physmod' tables play like utter crap.

To be honest, unimpressed at this point. I have one table that feels like it's

got one of those rubber super balls in it. Will try tweaking using the info provided.

Thanks.

[Johngreve]

Just an FYI....I stumbled across an old Mega page on a different site that had the word Universe in it.
There were almost 80-100 PM5 tables just sitting there for the taking.....it was a real treasure trove of AAA tables...stuff like DE Star Wars,Funhouse,The SimpsonsPP, AFM, Indiana Jones TPA and the list went on and on....
I grabbed them all....they all look and play great.....like many others I really like the look and the way PM5 tables played. In my opinion they are worth keeping side by side in your cabinet next to the VPX versions.
Go get 'em while you can! They are awesome!

[Ben Logan]

I'm having great luck converting EMs to PM5 for my own use. It's indeed really easy. I can't believe I never thought to do this before! I gave up on the idea a year or so ago, because ramps produced strange behaviors on DMD games. But with EMs, the process has been really straightforward. This is great!

I'm a huge fan of Loserman's tables, for example. Once I got used to VPX physics, I got kind of "spoiled" toward VP9 ball movement. It suddenly felt too linear and predictable. Converting Loserman's awesome tables to PM5 (which feels quite close to VPX) is a VP EM dream come true. Super fun! I played with settings on his fantastic Atlantis table for hours tonight and got great results. I encourage any EM / Loserman fan to give it a shot. As per usual, gtx-joe's recommendations are super helpful.

PS - I was lucky enough to visit Pinball Hall of Fame in Las Vegas last weekend. Ever since I've had EM fever (again)! EMs were a quarter per play.

[MrSunshine58]

Hey Ben, like you, i am also interested in EM tables with a bit more unpredictable physics like PM5, so i tried to convert a couple of Losermans tables as well, but no good result.
​The problem already starts at the beginning of the game: no ball is ejected! Well, not the normal way. It seems to stay stucked  inthere.
​I tried a couple of tables (one of them was Atlantis), but all with same result.

​I also tried repositioning the eject-kicker, and at some point i now could see the ball ejected, but it has no physical contact with the table, i think. It cannot be launched.
​But i don't think that this is a 'position' problem.

Maybe something needs to be done with the script?
​From what you wrote, I would think its very easy to convert a table to PM5, but i must be doing something wrong I guess?

​I also loaded a couple of non-Loserman VP9 tables, and they were all working oke (as far as loading and launching the ball is concerned),
​So, I was wondering if you have experienced the same issue, and how you solved it?    

 

[gtxjoe]

Atlantis - I get the same problem.  The apron is too low, the bottom height is set to 45.  Since the ball is 50 units,click on the apron and change the bottom height to 51.  That will get you started

[lodger]

Nice! I'm always up for a good EM game. If you can, post your mods- its would be cool to get a few new physmod versions

Edited by lodger, 09 December 2016 - 02:30 AM.

[Ben Logan]

GTX Joe to the rescue! I actually figured out that the apron was too low last night... after a full hour of experimentation!

I'll ask Jeff (Loserman) if it's ok to share. My guess is that he won't mind us trading tweaks of his tables via Dropbox, but I want to make sure!

[MrSunshine58]

Ah, tx for the quick answers guys, Redefining the apron's height did the job! Allthough i noticed a funny side effect: on a few occasions, when i launched the ball to softly, the ball disappeared when it returned to its starting position. This is not always the case though, so it is not a golden rule. And it is no issue, if you always launch the ball full into the game.

If i have converted (and adjusted) a couple of tables, i am willing to share them, and upload to a dropbox or such. But i will wait with that until Ben has made sure it is no problem.

 

 

[Ben Logan]

I PMd Loserman and Pinuck will let you guys know when I hear back. In the meantime, it's indeed really easy to plug in the values from post #2 and get some great results that serve as a basis for anyone's further tuning. I've tried them with Abra Ca Dabra and Roller Games, for example. They work great! Perhaps try a lower friction value on these tables. 

[Ben Logan]

Anyone have any idea why drop targets that drop in VP9, fail to drop when the table is opened in the Physmod 5 version of VP 9.9? Drop targets in Pinuck's Abra Ca Dabra and Joker Poker work great in Physmod environment, but Jack's Open experiences trouble. The targets only drop about half the time. It seems to happen most when two targets are at once (but happens with single targets too).

I've tried changing the height, elasticity, hit threshold... all that stuff. No luck. Any suggestions?

BTW -- Wow! Pinuck's tables are still just so visually beautiful. That guy is a master Photoshop artist. His simulated lighting really rivals the best use of VPX lighting tools. His tables are real gems.

EDIT: Must mention Sliderpoint's Jacks Open for VPX is awesome!

Edited by Ben Logan, 10 December 2016 - 09:57 PM.

[MrSunshine58]

Hey Ben, what i tried at the Jack's Open table is this: change the rotation of all the 9 drop targets by 1 degree. (right-click them, 3rd option, change the rotation: 0 into a 1). With this slightly angled position, the drop targets are not parallel anymore, so if the ball would hit 2 targets at the same time, there will be a small delay..... I dont know if this is the correct explanation or reason, but it works (for me at least).

​And indeed, Pinuck's tables are amazing. Abra Ca Dabra is not only visually stunning, the audio is something special as well..... I often play with a headphone on, and the sound is then just awesome.

​By the way, i think for EM tables, the guideline setting by Gtxjoe are a bit to harsh, especially the flipper speed. I often find myself turning down those settings alot (on EM tables, that is). On Abra for instance, i use a strength of 1000.
​I also often tend to lower the force of the popbumpers and the slingshots. Oh, and the slope..... i changed it on Abra to 4..... That makes the table very slow yes, but i examined a YouTube clip of the table, and had the feeling that a slope of 4 was more appropriate. Check the Abra clip for instance here  
​
​And for example, the slingshot force: i have set them both to 3,5, based on what i see at 1:18-1:24.   
​Anyway, examining YT clips of a table is for me the best way to get the 'feel of the table', and use that as a starting point.



 

[Ben Logan]

Great suggestions, Mr. Sunshine. I agree about slope and flipper strength for EMs. I'm no expert by any stretch. But, I love watching YouTube videos and seeing how close we can get!

 

I figured out the issue with Jacks Open drop targets not dropping when converting to PM5: The elasticity setting of the targets was causing the ball to bounce off of some of them before they could impact the target with enough force to drop them. This didn't seem to matter in the straight VP9 version, but PM5 it did. Maybe a fluke? Haven't run into this issue before. I don't know -- but lowering that value is what fixed it.

 

I've long been a fan of Loserman72 (Jeff). Jeff gave us permission to share PM5 mods of his tables via Dropbox (etc.). This isn't a formal "release." It's just for fun. Honestly, Jeff is so good at tweaking VP9 settings, I'm not sure I improved anything with a PM5 version. His tables are mostly pretty bright, so here's a quick night mod of El Dorado. I added some shading to pop bumpers and targets in GIMP. Playfield was darkened and had some fake GIMP lighting added. Big thanks to Jeff for letting me play around with his awesome tables.

 

 

Here's the link if anyone wants to give this a try. I encourage you to experiment with PM5 physics. The ball feels heavier for sure. But I'm positive my settings can me improved upon!

 

Remember to open this table in the Physmod5 version of VP 9.9:

 

https://www.dropbox....d Ben1.vpt?dl=0

[MrSunshine58]

El Dorado is a very cool table, and so are all the other tables of Loserman. Unfortunately though, almost non of his tables play decent on my system.
​For some reason that i can't figure out, the ball movement is super chunky on his tables.  As in stutters, sometimes 3 times a second.
​It is as if frames are dropped on some timer. Sometimes even resulting in a firm 'skip' of the ball. That makes playing these tables not enjoyable for me.

​I tried everything that you can imagine with the video options. Even a resolution of 640 x 480. It is not as bad then, but still, the framedroppings are noticable.
There is one exception, and that is Fast Draw. That's the only table that plays ok. Framedropping is still present, but only very occasional.

​I am pretty amazed by this, because the tables don't look like gfx-eating monsters at all. I have no problems at all with other tables, certainly not VP9 tables.
​And in VPX, I only have (sometimes) a few stutterings on Kingpin. But then again, thats a pretty heavy demanding table.
​So I figured, that it is not in my system, but 'something' in Losermans tables.

So, I took a look at El Dorado, wanted to finetune some of the physics, but the heavy stuttering simply disencouraged me to go on.