3889 replies to this topic

[mattfl]

Thanks guys. I'm gonna pick up a 750 TI as soon as this DMD i'm selling on ebay finishes. 

[SpykeDaddy]

I, too, am planning on upgrading my video cards, but really don't want to until VP 10 is truly released so that I know for sure that the new card will be sufficient enough. We're in month 10 of beta...are we squishing the tiny bugs now and getting close to release? I'm going to tie my Windows 10 upgrade to the VP10 upgrade and am excited to see what has transpired over the last few months! Epic thread and so fun to check in on it occasionally!

[fuzzel]

Quick question regarding the drop targets: do you know if some tables use drop targets which are hitable from front and behind?

 

I have changed the collision detection of the drop target so it won't fire a hit event and drops if hit from behind. So at the moment a drop target will only drop and fire an event if you hit it frontal or a bit from the side. Should I leave it that way or is it better to have the old way too and make it switchable?

[unclewilly]

I can't think of any, off the top of my head

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[bassgeige]

From the mechanical standpoint seen, can a real knock down target been hit backwards is one question. The other question is if you say a hit counts not backwards the editor still needs to have the capability to track shots from the playfield end, because it could be that a target can be mounted reverse backwards in a real pinball in case the original knock down target as described in my first assumption can only register shots from the front!

Edited by bassgeige, 15 November 2015 - 09:16 PM.

[jimmyfingers]

I think I've seen the "Death" drop target be able to be hit from behind on a real machine to drop it and raise the centre post in the game (could try and check through some video or make a trip to a location I know where one is in the next few days).  

 

I think probably having it as an option, if not too complicated, would be good but again if more complex behaviours are needed people can revert to using manual techniques so it depends a bit on how much it complicates or risks other things on the development side around these new targets.  Also, would be curious to hear more people's experiences with real pins and this drop target aspect.  I'm pretty sure I've seen discussion before and there are other games with a hit from behind dropping targets.

 

EDIT: Forgot to say what pinball table I was referring to.  It was a Stern Family Guy in real life that I believe this can happen as the target is out in the open  on it's own.

Edited by jimmyfingers, 15 November 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[cyberpez]

I can't think of any real tables that you would hit a target from behind and the front... But might be a good option to be able to use for original tables... If it's not hard to implement...

[Shockman]

I think hit-able surfaces for drop targets was in my first post regarding VP10. The whole idea of a drop target object was rejected.

 

In a perfect world it would take a higher hit threshold as you move away from a frontal hit, but would drop regardless of where hit as long as the are pushed back enough. Anything from the middle of the side back would be hard, but possible. From behind if you could hit them from behind would not work either hit with a pinball or a hammer unless you get an odd bounce, or they were designed with switches on both sides of the bottoms of the arms, which as far as I know does not exist.

 

A perfect solution in my opinion would be the same system of assigning values to control nodes like for mapping textures is. Low hit threshold in front, higher on the front of the sides, higher still on the back of the sides, and zero on the back, as defaults.

 

Cactus Canyon. Out in the open. No effect from the back on a real pin, drops in VP. My Mr. & Mrs. PAC-MAN, drops if the back corner is hit with a ball going down. Should not happen. It use to have invisible walls there to prevent that, but they lost their sync sometime ago. 

 

I will say that attention to this detail is enough for me. I trust you'll get it right. Thanks

Edited by Shockman, 16 November 2015 - 12:28 AM.

[allknowing2012]

Bronco/Mustang -- you can clip those centre targets and make them drop..

[j.accioly]

I built a machine in the vp10. Where can I post it?

Attached Files

•  Zarza VP10.jpg   155.46KB   24 downloads

[hauntfreaks]

I built a machine in the vp10. Where can I post it?

http://www.vpforums....showtopic=30784

[Ben Logan]

I built a machine in the vp10. Where can I post it?

Nice choice with Xenon.

[BorgDog]

Funny that drop target hit questions is up now, I was just looking at them and how they actually work on 70's Gottlieb EM tables earlier today (thanks again for letting us visit your collection gnance!).  At least on those a back hit would do nothing as would a straight on side hit.  it would take at least some front angle to get it to knock it off the ledge, of course the more frontal the less force needed.  I'm all for options though, so if it's possible to make it select-able, say like the one way vs two way gates, that would be great.

[Jafjas]

Yea so seems I'm not alone. Thanks guys for chiming in with your findings, hopefully dev team can look into more as to me this is more important than the focus on graphics.

If you're already using Aero BananaBoat, then you should be able to configure / have a stutter free solution that won't change anything then what you're currently used to with respect to any introduced / new flipper lag.  Assuming you are on Windows 7, if you don't purposely turn off Aero / turn on Windows classic themes / disable Desktop Composition in the .exe or through Advanced Performance Settings for Windows>Visual Effects Tab, then just set your video card vsync to it's default and use VP's vsync / FPS option and set it to 1 (make sure it's consistent between your global preferences or at least override it on the table options with "1" in the appropriate field).  On all systems I have tried, for both PhysMOD and VPX, this has resulted in buttery smooth play.  The only thing that has come up recently is that some slight flipper lag is present with this scenario.  But, if you have already been working and content with Aero effectively being on, then you shouldn't notice a change to your flipper response / experience and that particular VP vsync set to 1 and a standard 60hz TV or monitor (works fine for 120hz monitor as well) should get you where you would like to be as far as eliminating stutter.

I have my settings like this, I mean earo and so turned on, nothing special in the envidia settings turned on but set to "use program". When I use "1" in the vpx setting for the frame limiter I get stutter (bad), when I use 2 or 60 I get smooth gameplay but with the occasionally hickup with the ball. I've tried every setting but none of them made the sporadic stutter disappear.
I run a 750ti and a 3750k processor and 6 GB internal memories along with a SSD.

[jimmyfingers]

 

 

Yea so seems I'm not alone. Thanks guys for chiming in with your findings, hopefully dev team can look into more as to me this is more important than the focus on graphics.

If you're already using Aero BananaBoat, then you should be able to configure / have a stutter free solution that won't change anything then what you're currently used to with respect to any introduced / new flipper lag.  Assuming you are on Windows 7, if you don't purposely turn off Aero / turn on Windows classic themes / disable Desktop Composition in the .exe or through Advanced Performance Settings for Windows>Visual Effects Tab, then just set your video card vsync to it's default and use VP's vsync / FPS option and set it to 1 (make sure it's consistent between your global preferences or at least override it on the table options with "1" in the appropriate field).  On all systems I have tried, for both PhysMOD and VPX, this has resulted in buttery smooth play.  The only thing that has come up recently is that some slight flipper lag is present with this scenario.  But, if you have already been working and content with Aero effectively being on, then you shouldn't notice a change to your flipper response / experience and that particular VP vsync set to 1 and a standard 60hz TV or monitor (works fine for 120hz monitor as well) should get you where you would like to be as far as eliminating stutter.

I have my settings like this, I mean earo and so turned on, nothing special in the envidia settings turned on but set to "use program". When I use "1" in the vpx setting for the frame limiter I get stutter (bad), when I use 2 or 60 I get smooth gameplay but with the occasionally hickup with the ball. I've tried every setting but none of them made the sporadic stutter disappear.
I run a 750ti and a 3750k processor and 6 GB internal memories along with a SSD.

 

Would you PM me some screenshots of your nVidia control panel (3d) settings and also your VP video preferences.  If you're interested I'd like to take one of these cases where, with Windows 7 and Aero on, that the "1" setting for VP in vsync / frame limiter does not produce totally smooth play.  I have been able to do that on 4 different systems without issue (but all nVidia and all Windows 7 32 bit whether it matters).  PM as not to distract from the main topic of the VPX beta - if you're interested / willing of course.

[hauntfreaks]

Would you PM me some screenshots of your nVidia control panel (3d) settings and also your VP video preferences.  If you're interested I'd like to take one of these cases where, with Windows 7 and Aero on, that the "1" setting for VP in vsync / frame limiter does not produce totally smooth play.  I have been able to do that on 4 different systems without issue (but all nVidia and all Windows 7 32 bit whether it matters).  PM as not to distract from the main topic of the VPX beta - if you're interested / willing of course.

 

so if you're running win7 32bit.... you're limited to only 3gb of usable ram, correct?.... and with such little ram you're getting smooth operation?

[jimmyfingers]

3.56 GB of usable RAM in my specific case for my development box and 3.45 GB for my mini-cab as you may or may not know it depends on a few other items and how some of your system BIOS is configured as well.  But yah, if nothing else the 4GB is the upper limit for 32 bit OSes and I'm running totally smooth on both of these systems with nVidia cards leaving Aero on and using VP's vsync set to 1 with nVidia left at mostly defaults for it's settings.  In nVidia control panel I'm using the defaults / "restored" values under the Global Profile with the two exceptions being changing to "Prefer maximum performance" for "Power management mode" and also setting as well the "Maximum pre-rendered frames" to 1".  Leaving everything else as default including "Vertical sync" being left at default as "Use the 3D application setting".  

 

In VP, with these settings I still get no ball stutter or periodic / sporadic stutter as long as I leave Aero on but I do get a bit of flipper lag (a little less on my mini-cabinet because it runs at 120 FPS vsync due to the Yamakasi Catleap (Korean 120Hz overclocked) monitor I use.  I have found that the VP setting for pre-rendered frames set to 1 gives me a little less input lag but setting at 0 gives me a slight FPS increase but a detectable increase in flipper lag. Set at 0 (again, all with the corresponding nVidia pre-rendered options above) it also gives the exact same results in FPS gain as setting to 2 with both feeling a tad more laggy than set to 1.  It also seems that there's a chance that makes sense that it's producing less input lag / working harder because the FPS does actually drop if using 1 (that is getting those numbers though / checking only in a temporary testing mode with VP's vsync off to just compare assess the maximum capable FPS).  Both modes / comparisons of the effects of VP's internal pre-rendered frames the rest of the time, for things like flipper lag, were while playing with vsync locked to 1 and on my mini-cab to yield / force a consistent 120hz = 120 FPS for a better chance to notice lag improvement or detriment.  On on my development system I use a wireless keyboard and mouse which really completely throws off much input lag testing plus with the 60hz projector / monitors small gains / losses to input lag from other settings may not be as noticeable but the whole thing is a bit tough as input lag is essentially subjective / qualitative in all tests I can do without some crazy / costly contraptions).  

[hauntfreaks]

here is my setup as it sits right now.... I'll give setting the nvidia to default later tonight.... but do you see anything odd here??

 

also I hope by discussing this, it will help everyone else that is questioning their setups...

 

Edited by hauntfreaks, 17 November 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[jimmyfingers]

@hauntfreaks - There are a number of nVidia control panel settings that you have set that I do not have matching on my systems where VP's vsync and Windows 7 Aero is working fluidly.  I verified earlier today that using the "Restore" option in the nVidia control panel brings back everything I use except the 2 items I mention above that I set in there afterward.  So, I would do that for the main adjustments and test things out before even altering anything else and assess the impact of just those configuration changes first.  Again, confirm that Aero is for sure on and that Desktop composition isn't disabled on the VP executable or under the System Properties>Advanced System Settings>Advanced Tab>Performance. 

 

As far as VP preferences do not use the "Alternative Depth Buffer processing" unless you have actual problems with your system requiring it.  Further on VP video preferences, try setting "Max prerendered frames" to 1 while you're also testing the FPS limiter/Vsync being set at 1 but after all the nVidia changes / factory defaults are used / above changes done first.  As an added, pretty much "free" quality / visual improvement but not related to ball stutter, enable "Anisotropic Texture Filtering" as certain textures for things like plastic "World" / table sized graphics can be blurry without it and it has basically zero impact on performance from anything I've ever tested with it (both from testing VP's native option as well as previously experimenting with the different options while forcing it within the nVidia control panel - but I leave it as "Application-controlled", which again is set by default / "Restore" button settings anyway).

[hauntfreaks]

I went back to my cab....

- set my Nvidia to the default (restored) settings (Except for your two exceptions)

- set VP's FPS limiter to "1"

 

I will have to say, I felt my system was pretty smooth... but doing all your settings and making all the other settings were correct.... it is for sure EVEN SMOOTHER .... is it just wishful thinking on my part??... I hope not... I really do feel having all these exact settings has help on the smoothness and shutter free system....Thank You! 

 

I also want to say.... this all being with in one post and not scattered throughout the forum, should help most people get equal results on there systems...

 

anyway will also post my performance tab and compatibility tab... look good?

 

Edited by hauntfreaks, 17 November 2015 - 07:30 AM.