15 replies to this topic

[Tesla]

So, if we need something like:

 

VPinMAME-SC v3.x (x86) to be installed to be able to utilize Sam-Color or Alt-Color rom DMDs ... why doesn't the VPX v10.7.2 full-installer just go ahead and install that version instead of the basic one?

 

Isn't it backwards compatible with all the basic things we use VPinMame for in the first place?

Edited by Tesla, 21 March 2023 - 04:07 AM.

[Mike DA Spike]

So, if we need something like:
 
VPinMAME-SC v3.x (x86) to be installed to be able to utilize Sam-Color or Alt-Color rom DMDs ... why doesn't the VPX v10.7.2 full-installed just go ahead and install that version instead of the basic one?
 
Isn't it backwards compatible with all the basic things we use VPinMame for in the first place?

To my knowledge SAM colored roms are part of latest vpinmame.
Alt-color roms are an extension that are used by dmddevice.dll. it replaces scenes with a colored one.

[Tesla]

They are separate things? Interesting.

 

I'm just try to use these Alt-Color files that @Wiesshund linked to:

 

https://www.vpforums...=50845&p=514577

 

I thought they were suppose to be colorized DMDs?

[vothar]

They are separate things? Interesting.

 

I'm just try to use these Alt-Color files that @Wiesshund linked to:

 

https://www.vpforums...=50845&p=514577

 

I thought they were suppose to be colorized DMDs?

you mixed 2 systems... first : colored rom that need the 'SC' version of vpinmame (these can have from 4 colors to 64 colors... and the palette can change for each scenes of the DMD, and need a .vni+.pal files or .pac files for example with the right DLL (freezy/lucky1)..and some either need a hacked rom like the one for stern pinball) and second : new color palettes that replace only the 4 base colors for ALL the scenes (that need only a .pal files...and most of the time, just change the global hue of the DMD and work with any roms and any version of vpinmame ... if my memory is right, but not sure for the vpinmame part as i never used any other version than the -SC (or the SAMbuild before that) . the link you gave (and gdrive link after) mix the two system.

 

the version of vpinmame that can use colored rom were always different than the base one (still the same for v3.6 today) because of potential compatibility problems and/or legal one...

Edited by vothar, 21 March 2023 - 11:37 AM.

[Carny_Priest]

There is a weird history with Stern S.A.M. system support within VPinMame. I won't get into that, but what we have now is a vestige of that history. The only difference with the sc builds is that the game list adds entries for a number of Stern S.A.M. to allow game code that has been hacked to include colored DMD and/or alternate sound tracks to load and run in VPinMame. Why would VPinMame require separate entries? Pinball Browser is software that allows colorizing DMD and replacing soundtracks for a number of pinball systems. It will use up available free space in the system for modders to add content. So, within the VPinMame source code these entries are there with max file size defined, larger file size than the original code to bypass that error check. There is no official imprimatur given to any particular mod project. Error checking based on checksums are meaningless. Players need to check the Ignore CRC error box in the game's settings, and any project should load.

 

At this point, I don't think that there is any legal or philosophical barrier to making these builds one. The official build supports all kinds of hacks to original game code although they are usually adding some useful feature to gameplay and not just cosmetic. Bug fixes to original code, changing random awards to allow tournament play, adding free play, etc. May just simply not be a high priority for PinMamedev.

Edited by Carny_Priest, 21 March 2023 - 04:18 PM.

[Tesla]

There is a weird history with Stern S.A.M. system support within VPinMame. I won't get into that, but what we have now is a vestige of that history. The only difference with the sc builds is that the game list adds entries for a number of Stern S.A.M. to allow game code that has been hacked to include colored DMD and/or alternate sound tracks to load and run in VPinMame. Why would VPinMame require separate entries? Pinball Browser is software that allows colorizing DMD and replacing soundtracks for a number of pinball systems. It will use up available free space in the system for modders to add content. So, within the VPinMame source code these entries are there with max file size defined, larger file size than the original code to bypass that error check. There is no official imprimatur given to any particular mod project. Error checking based on checksums are meaningless. Players need to check the Ignore CRC error box in the game's settings, and any project should load.

 

At this point, I don't think that there is any legal or philosophical barrier to making these builds one. The official build supports all kinds of hacks to original game code although they are usually adding some useful feature to gameplay and not just cosmetic. Bug fixes to original code, changing random awards to allow tournament play, adding free play, etc. May just simply not be a high priority for PinMamedev.

 

Thanks for that explanation ... I understand most of it.

 

At this point, I'm not interested in running any hacked-roms (especially not for something cosmetic like color-DMDs). I like running the virtual-tables with the (final fixed Level) rom-sets as are used in the physical machines. If Stern tables can't then have colorized DMD, so be it.

 

Adding real features is a little different I suppose. AFAIK, the only non-official rom-set I have currently is Star-Wars v1.07 Unofficial. I only got it (well, made it) because the Table I downloaded required it. That seems ok to me since (if I understand correctly) this code can be burnt-into EPROMs and installed in a physical Star Wars machine.

 

Seems like Fallout to me. I might want to occasionally run with some addons and Mods, but I would never want to remove my ability to run it "vanilla". Vanilla is good as that is what the developers intended. It might seem silly to some, but protecting the rom-code and historical accuracy of some of these classic pinball-machine tables is important to me. 

Edited by Tesla, 22 March 2023 - 04:47 PM.

[Carny_Priest]

Yeah, there is nothing necessarily wrong with modded game code. Its just a known issue for commercial pinball that there is a limited production run before design teams have to move on to the next project. There are features that wind up not getting supported during a run because it is too expensive and/or they don't have time to fix all the code bugs. They often don't get a chance to go back and fix things. Now that there is a substantial home/hobby market for pinball, others are making those fixes. Even the Pinball Browser mods are made to run on real tables. And it certainly seems possible to run into third party modded out tables on location. It's all done for supporting real pinball tables, but the virtual pinball world also benefits.

 

https://www.pinballcode.com/sw107

 

Pure authenticity to manufacturer code is not always the best experience.

[Tesla]

Now that there is a substantial home/hobby market for pinball, others are making those fixes. Even the Pinball Browser mods are made to run on real tables. And it certainly seems possible to run into third party modded out tables on location. It's all done for supporting real pinball tables, but the virtual pinball world also benefits.

 

https://www.pinballcode.com/sw107

 

Pure authenticity to manufacturer code is not always the best experience.

 

Agreed.

 

For example, this one and the others he modded were done for a "real reason" and not for a cosmetic enhancement like "color DMDs".

 

Yeah, this is the Star Wars rom (rom set) I patched/made.

Edited by Tesla, 21 March 2023 - 10:01 PM.

[wiesshund]

They are separate things? Interesting.

 

I'm just try to use these Alt-Color files that @Wiesshund linked to:

 

https://www.vpforums...=50845&p=514577

 

I thought they were suppose to be colorized DMDs?

STERN ROMs are color patched INSIDE the ROM code
hence they only use an external pallet file

Normal VPM only recognizes the accepted stock dumps or a ROM, plus a few now standard ROM hacks (tom & jerry for example)

for a time VPM SC was actually worked on separately, though now it is done right in the main VPM branch

External colorizations (PAL + VNI, PAC and CRZ) need no ROM hacking/patching and do not need special VPM
They only need
vpinmame\altcolor\romname folder to exist
and inside that folder a pin 2 dmd.pal and .vni (no spaces in pin 2 dmd)
and VPN needs colorize checked for that ROM's settings and use external DLL checked (as VM wont show the color internally since it doesnt happen internally)

 

Same with a CRZ colorization and a PAC colorization (but PAC needs lucky1's dll)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[toxie]

As the others here already mentioned, the sc separation is more historically based, and the color slots are basically a leftover from that.

These are also not really a clean solution, too, thus we still miss some kind of better approach, and thats why this build is still around.

But apart from that there is no real reason anymore.

[Tesla]

 

They only need
vpinmame\altcolor\romname folder to exist
and inside that folder a pin 2 dmd.pal and .vni (no spaces in pin 2 dmd)
and VPN needs colorize checked for that ROM's settings and use external DLL checked (as VM wont show the color internally since it doesnt happen internally)

 

Same with a CRZ colorization and a PAC colorization (but PAC needs lucky1's dll)

 

 

 

You offered these when I was just starting-out. I downloaded-and-stashed them until I was ready.

 

I got it working with the first one I tried, Apollo-13. Very nice indeed. Definitely worth the effort, thanks.

Edited by Tesla, 23 March 2023 - 01:27 AM.

[wiesshund]

they are fun, though i dont see them much
dmd and entire backglass could vanish and i wouldnt notice until game over

[Tesla]

they are fun, though i dont see them much
dmd and entire backglass could vanish and i wouldnt notice until game over

 

 

 

So, I merged the contents of the various zip-files together into my \AltColor\ folder.

 

I started with the main folder. It contained rom-like named-folders with the larger/dual-files. I expect those are the nicer/prettier ones. 

Then, I added the Gottlieb-table folders.

- Took a little detour and setup Rescue911 with a color-DMD . IIRC, it's one of the simpler ones with just a .pal file, (but still pretty cool).

Finally, (as long at the exact folder didn't already exist) I copied-over the named-folders from the last archive.

 

I only have about 22 tables installed, but I recognized some of those other rom/folder-names so looks like I have some welcomed table-reconfigurations ahead. I'll also re-create any required PinballY medias (I like those to be exactly correct and up-to-date). 

Edited by Tesla, 23 March 2023 - 01:42 AM.

[Tesla]

they are fun, though i dont see them much
dmd and entire backglass could vanish and i wouldnt notice until game over

 

The "advanced" ones (with the pal and vni files) are very nice.

I ended-up using the ones for Apollo-13, Theatre of Magic, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Simpsons.

 

I don't mind the "authentic look" of the orange DMD on Tables, but and I think they enhance the gaming experience a bit without going overboard.

 

I also used one of the simpler ones (with only the smaller pal file) on Rescue-911 (Gottlieb). The palette is limited, but looked "painted" to me.

Edited by Tesla, 29 March 2023 - 04:56 PM.

[Mike DA Spike]

I don't like the roms with only the 4 color palette file. But like the other file formats which bring 16 or even 64 colors to my (real) dmd. Also a few patched roms. Its a lot of work for the people who color the scenes, so i have deep respect for them.

There are also colored real pins that modified the dmd to a color one. I doesn't get higher score on those, but gives me a bit of feeling that it looks more mature. But thats just my opinion

[wiesshund]

I don't like the roms with only the 4 color palette file. But like the other file formats which bring 16 or even 64 colors to my (real) dmd. Also a few patched roms. Its a lot of work for the people who color the scenes, so i have deep respect for them.

There are also colored real pins that modified the dmd to a color one. I doesn't get higher score on those, but gives me a bit of feeling that it looks more mature. But thats just my opinion

4 colors is fine

IF the scene is painted

if its just 4 colors based on brightness, then not so much.