13 replies to this topic

[Theinkdon]

Hi all.  1st-time poster, but I've been reading and lurking for a few weeks.

My background:  mechanical engineer, car mechanic, electronics hobbyist, tinkerer.

I built a MAME cab, and now want to do pinball.

I want to do it right and not scrimp for the sake of saving money, but I'm frugal by nature.  If there were a $4000 machine shipped to my door, that I could buy and it be mostly 'complete,' I might even do that.

 

So all that said, I'm doing a lot of research (thank you, mjr!) and making decisions.

 

I had the VP standard body and back box kits in my cart thinking I'd save myself some time and trouble, $595 shipped.

But 3/4" birch ply at my local Lowes is $84, and 1/2" whitewood ply is 50, so $134 for wood if I can get all the body parts out of 1 sheet without messing up (it's tight!).  That saves $460, which covers the cab builder's kit (450) I'll buy from them.  (I have all the woodworking tools:  table saw, miter saw, router, etc.)

Those are the kinds of decisions I'm making right now, higher-level stuff.

 

I know there are many ways to skin a cat, but I'm just looking for advice/opinions.  I don't want this to turn into a debate or argument, just tell me what you did and if you like it. 

 

1) I was going to do all the solenoids for flippers, bumpers, slingshots, etc, but then discovered SSF.  So I think I want to try that first.  (I'll still do a shaker motor, knocker, etc.)   I found MajorFrenchy's guide, (thank you, sir!), and have ordered Dayton exciters and 2.1 amps to drive them.  One of his drawings shows "subs" for the front and rear channels.

• For the rear it shows "audio sub", and the symbol is smaller than the "main" subwoofer associated with the speakers in the DMD/speaker panel.  Should that be an actual cone-type subwoofer?  And if so, what size is recommended?  I have a Dayton 8" coming for the cab, so I was thinking 6" for this one, both from their "GRS Poly Cone" line.
• Or should/could I put in a bass shaker.  If so, what's big enough:  HDN-8?  BST-2?  TT-25?
• For the front it shows an "additional exciter under lockdown."  I've ordered Dayton DAEX58FP's; would the "additional exciter" be that same size, or more of a bass shaker as above?
• And from the drawings and pictures I've seen, it doesn't look like there's much room between the lockbar receiver and the coin door.  Is this where those words mean to put it? 

2) Exciter placement.  I'm going to do a playfield TV on a slab with the real pinball pivot hardware.  Front stop blocks for it to rest on.

• The Pinscape Build Guide says to attach exciters to the support slab, at the corners.  (If it says differently elsewhere, apologies, I haven't gotten that far yet.)
• But MajorFrenchy's material (and others I've seen) say to attach them to the cab sidewalls, but in those same relative locations.

Is one location preferred over the other?

If support slab, then could that front "additional exciter" be attached there also, centered between the corner exciters?

And if an exciter can replace the "audio sub" for the rear exciters, attach it to the substrate also?  

 

I realize it all probably works out about the same, it just seems to me that attaching them to the support slab would be a little more realistic because that's the actual playfield, and like a real pin, the noises happen there but then are probably attenuated somewhat through where the playfield sits on its supports.  Plus sound radiated up through the glass, I'd imagine.

I realize that most of that could probably be dealt with using volume control.

 

3) Since I'm talking subs:  enclosures and porting.  I have some experience designing and building subwoofer enclosures, and I like the idea of enclosing the audio sub in the floor of the cab (and the SSF rear audio sub if that's the way to go).

I've read that OEMs didn't box them, so that's probably just fine.

Is there any benefit to sealing and porting?  Other than protecting the cones from physical damage.

I do want to incorporate jukebox software, so sonic fidelity is a little bit of a priority.  Sony 5.25" coaxials are going in the back box.

 

Thanks, all!  Such a great community here, at least as good as the MAME community.

 

Mike in Atlanta

[wiesshund]

OEMs didnt box them because OEMs dont have subs

Just generic speaker that has nothing in common with a sub

 

If you already know about building enclosures, then you already know the answer as to what the effect is to sticking the ass end of a sub into a big uncontrolled open space

[Theinkdon]

If you already know about building enclosures, then you already know the answer as to what the effect is to sticking the ass end of a sub into a big uncontrolled open space

Lol, very to the point!  I didn't realize the speaker in the bottom of the originals was just a generic speaker.  

I was a bit worried about space, which is why I even considered not boxing it, but I should be able to make it work.

Thanks.

[wiesshund]

Not optimal of course, but an enclosure needn't be much more than an inch bigger than the sub
figure 1/2 inch material, plus 1/2 inch clearance to basket and magnet, plus and extra couple inches on one side, enough to drill a rudimentary untuned port 

Mind you nothing says an encloser has to be 100% inside.
It could be half inside and half sticking out the bottom of the table.

Or once could do like a dual 6" sub box, those have a lot less depth
and mount it under the cab at the back and it wouldnt be noticeable really unless one climbs under the cab
would be like building a 6" kicker box for a car, and those are very small.

 

Personally, i dont like using 2.1 amps, even though they seem to be the thing to use.

PC Audio hardware has a SUB out and the appropriate bass management
which will handle all channels from backglass to table in one spot.

[Theinkdon]

Thanks again for the further info.  Parts Express recommends a 1 cubic-foot enclosure for these 8" subs, so like you said, height just enough to clear the magnet, then I should be able to get 1 ft3 crossways in the cab, not much wider than the driver itself.  And that might make a handy shelf to install things on.

 

Once I get it in hand I can see how tall it really is.  I don't think I like the idea of part of the box extending below the floor, but I could mount the sub from the outside, screwing it into the outside of the floor, then cover it with a snap-on grill that hides the mounting ring.  That would buy me 3/4" of clearance at the magnet, plus the depth of the mounting flange, so nearly an inch, likely.

 

I'll have to think more about the 2.1 thing and the PC hardware's SUB out.  I thought the idea was to use that for the "music" part of the system, the L/R speakers in the DMD panel, plus the sub buried in the cabinet floor; the "front" outputs.  Then the SSF table sounds would be driven by the "side" and "rear" outputs, which are L/R only (right?), but a 2.1 amp would mix them together and low-pass them to a sub.  

Isn't that how you get separation between the "music" and the "table sounds" soundtracks?  Otherwise, wouldn't the table sounds low frequencies be passed to the main sub, along with the the music LFE? 

 

Probably works out, but leads me back to Part 1 of my question:

 

Does anyone know what best-practice is for the SSF subs?  Audio drivers? Bass shakers?  Are they needed at all?

 

And Part 2:

 

SSF exciter placement:  under the playfield monitor (mounted to a slab), or side walls of cab?

 

Thanks,

Mike

[wiesshund]

Bass has no separation and is mostly non directional

 

why does 12 channel surround only have 1 LFE track?
because of the above

Make speaker enclosure from MDF
its dense, doesnt create its own audio color

Looks blah, but makes good enclosures as it doesnt like to transmit sound much

hence exciters screwed to MDF need a bunch of watts to do much of anything

 

You can put no woofer for backglass

then you need 2 woofers

 

And backglass has bleh bass
doesnt matter for old tables, they have no bass, but newer roms do
Like newer stern machines etc.

 

You's wind up with 2 2.1 amps and 2 subs
unless you want no bass from the lower half of the table?

 

[Jewer76]

SSF exciter placement:  under the playfield monitor (mounted to a slab), or side walls of cab?
 
Thanks,
Mike

I put mine on the side walls, and so do most others, I believe. The reasoning being that the exciters give a tactile feedback that you want to feel, which is only achieveable if they are on the walls.

Also, they amplify their sound through the material they are placed on, so I guess you'd rather have this come from the sides of the cabinet rather than internally on the slab.

Edited by Jewer76, 21 February 2023 - 05:59 AM.

[wiesshund]

I put mine on the side walls, and so do most others, I believe. The reasoning being that the exciters give a tactile feedback that you want to feel, which is only achieveable if they are on the walls.

Also, they amplify their sound through the material they are placed on, so I guess you'd rather have this come from the sides of the cabinet rather than internally on the slab.

 

 

Under slab, which is under monitor, which is under plate glass

Seems to me that would give greatly reduced sound, and exciters are not loud to begin with

Also seems the tactile feedback would be diminished?

Though a ported enclosed sub would at least make up for that part somewhat.

[Theinkdon]

I put mine on the side walls, and so do most others, I believe. The reasoning being that the exciters give a tactile feedback that you want to feel, which is only achieveable if they are on the walls.

Also, they amplify their sound through the material they are placed on, so I guess you'd rather have this come from the sides of the cabinet rather than internally on the slab.

 

Thanks (and wiesshund too) for that.  Walls it is then.  Going back through the Guide I see that clearly now.

The reason I asked is that I thought I'd seen in there an option to mount them directly to the bottom of the TV slab.  But I'm not finding that now, so I must've seen it somewhere else.

 

I'll still do walls, I'm not arguing that, but I'm wondering if this is a case where either placement would work?  Because after all, a real pin's solenoids are mounted on the bottom of the playfield, analogous to mounting exciters to the bottom of the playfield TV slab, and the sound manages to make it out.  But it might just be a matter of power from (and applied to) the exciters: if they were strong enough to mimic the hit of a real solenoid, then they ought to work there.  But if it works out the same to your ears and fingertips to put them on the sidewalls, where they'd need less power by default, then that's what I'll do.

 

Now what about subs/shakers for SSF?  MJR's Guide says not needed, but MajorFrenchy's second drawing in this thread shows an audio sub for the rear channel, and an "additional exciter" for the front channel.  Is this a case where maybe go without those SSF "subs" first and see how it sounds/feels?  (And yes, I do know that bass is omni-directional, and I know now that the playfield bass can be mixed into the feed to the cab's main sub.  I'm just trying to understand that drawing, why he spec'd those, and why I can't find much about people using them.)

 

So, if you're using SSF "subs" (audio or tactile), do you think they make enough of a difference to warrant the extra trouble and expense?

 

Thanks.

[Jewer76]

Now what about subs/shakers for SSF?  MJR's Guide says not needed, but MajorFrenchy's second drawing in this thread shows an audio sub for the rear channel, and an "additional exciter" for the front channel.  Is this a case where maybe go without those SSF "subs" first and see how it sounds/feels?  (And yes, I do know that bass is omni-directional, and I know now that the playfield bass can be mixed into the feed to the cab's main sub.  I'm just trying to understand that drawing, why he spec'd those, and why I can't find much about people using them.)

 

So, if you're using SSF "subs" (audio or tactile), do you think they make enough of a difference to warrant the extra trouble and expense?

 

 

Funny enough, I am at this point myself with my build.

 

There are two camps on this one and I guess it is down to personal preference: those who don't care much for SSF (or at least, as you say, don't see the need for the bass og sub part, instead letting the backbox sub handle the lows), and then those who find SSF absolutely a must.

 

My thought process was this:

 

I am not sure I really want to go down the route of adding solenoids. In the environment I am going to play this thing, I would end up turning them off all the time. Also, I can live with something that mimics the real thing, but is not quite there. After all, it IS a simulation all the way through

 

So I wanted the SSF and got the exciters installed. To be honest, I was underwhelmed by the tactile feedback. I don't really feel the knocks and bumps in general, other than on a few selected tables. But then again, a lot of people who own the real machines say that you don't feel those things in real life, so perhaps it is more realistic this way?

 

A thing that DID impress me, was how the exciters made a surround environment on the playfield. The sounds, like the role of the ball, is totally matched with what you see. This part was very impressive and, to me, very immersive.

 

So to your last question, the SSF sub. This I have not installed, but I think I will, though it will be a bass shaker. There might be a thousand reasons why it is not needed, but as I said, it all come down to personal preference. And I might hate it

 

What I can say is, on Youtube you can follow Emil from Way of the wrench, who is in the process of building a cab himself. I've spoken with him a bit about this subject, and he believes the bass shaker add the lows that the exciters themselves lack. This for me is worth trying out.

[Theinkdon]

Deleted duplicate post.

Edited by Theinkdon, 21 February 2023 - 10:50 PM.

[Theinkdon]

There are two camps on this one and I guess it is down to personal preference: those who don't care much for SSF (or at least, as you say, don't see the need for the bass or sub part, instead letting the backbox sub handle the lows), and then those who find SSF absolutely a must.

 

What I can say is, on Youtube you can follow Emil from Way of the wrench, who is in the process of building a cab himself. I've spoken with him a bit about this subject, and he believes the bass shaker add the lows that the exciters themselves lack. This for me is worth trying out.

 

Thanks for chiming in again.  I think I'm in agreement with you, especially after doing more research today, and then compiling that into an answer-my-own-question post that should've been up already but figuring how to insert pics here was kicking my butt.  That's below, and you'll see it agrees with what you said, at least about the subjectivity.

 

When I first started this journey I was excited about all the electromechanical "gadgets" because I love those kinds of things.  But after discovering SSF, and how much some people see it fairly well replicates those things, I think I'll go that route first.  Especially if adding a bass shaker or sub would help in that department, giving the "clunkier" things more oomph.

 

And thanks for the direction to Way of the Wrench on YT. I found him from here yesterday when someone mentioned his vids, and I watched one pertaining to what I was researching at the moment.  I like his style and thoroughness, so now I need to go find his SSF vid.  Him saying bass shaker and you thinking of trying that makes me lean that way now.  Would certainly be simpler and take up less space than a ported enclosure.

 

Below is what I'd written up before, which adds to some of the above, and with this I think my need for this thread is done.

Take care.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

OP here, I'll answer my own question about subs/shakers for SSF and then consider this thread closed for my purposes.

Thought this might help others.  I don't know that it's all absolutely correct, or that things haven't evolved, but this is what I found.

 

I had been attributing this drawing to MajorFrenchy, from his SSF Setup Guide:

 

But after Googling "SSF" and "subs" today I found this thread from the AussieArcade forum, by RustyCardores, who seems to be have started all this Poor Man's DOF stuff (which became SSF).

 

On p.16 of that thread he posted that exact drawing on August 7, 2017.

Maybe Rusty is Frenchy, or Frenchy got the info for his guide from there (or the Facebook group they have), but it doesn't matter.

If I'm wrong about any of this let me know and I'll edit.

 

After reading through that 20-page thread, I found Rusty's particular reasoning behind the audio sub paired with the rear exciters, but the tactile exciter sub under the lockbar.  (Attached to it, really.)

 

He was using a "timber" lockbar, so felt he needed the additional bass exciter there for the vibrations to get through it.

 

And he said that others with plywood cabs didn't use or need it.

 

For the rear sub he recommended a 5" (4" in another place) audio woofer.  He put it in a small ported enclosure, which he mounted on a crossbar running side-to-side of his cab, and slightly "this side" of the rear exciters, as the drawing shows.

   He seemed to think that only that one sub was necessary for SSF (keep the main sub for the music system of course), but that it was important to have it near the far end of the playtable.

   Something about having "clunkier" sounds seem to come from further down-table, which is where those things tend to be, while not muddying the sound of the front exciters, which mainly do flippers (and the slingshots).  Those are all my words, but that's the idea I got.

 

Someone had done that and posted pics, but had added an audio sub between the front exciters, and Rusty specifically said that probably wasn't necessary, just the one down-table.  But that guy came back and said that he loved the "front audio sub pointing [up] to lockdown... great tactile rumble."  So again, down to personal preference I think.

 

So that's what I'm going to go with:  4 exciters on the walls, 1 audio sub "down the middle" of the cab as Rusty put it, slightly forward of the rear exciters.  [But after what Jewer76 said above, probably a bass shaker.]

 

Thanks for the help, wiesshund and Jewer76.

[1015eclipse]

If you have room you could but a 8 inch woofer driver in a cabinet poking out an 8 inch on the bottom of cab.  This keep the vibration isolated from the rest of the cab giving better bass sound.  https://www.amazon.c...1_t2_B09QXTQCYN

[wiesshund]

I would use a good quality powered 8" sub, firing out the cab bottom
fully enclosed, and with at least a 1 inch rudimentary port.
DONT just put in a sub with no enclosure, you wont be impressed by the results if you hear/feel the comparison.

personally i do not like the amp recommendations, nor speaker wiring recommendations in current use.
most will probably venomously disagree with me but...

I would use 2 of these

Sure Electronics AA-AB33184 4x100W TDA7498 Class-D Amplifier Board (parts-express.com)

 

A good 8" subwoofer is going to give feedback
It does when you are watching a movie in surround, right?
I am not sure why one would recommend a 4" subwoofer, 4" is not really capable of much.
Even 6" i'd have to use them as a pair to accomplish much.

You only need 1 sub device.
Backbox sound is not exactly bassy, not a lot of sense to dedicate a sub just for it and then need more sub devices in the cab to cover what you
actually need a sub for, which is the table stuff.

 

Yes those amps cost more, they are also capable of properly driving a good sub.

then you just run windows to them in standard analog 7.1 surround.
and adjust the channel balance in windows, as you have to drive the exciters higher than the backbox speakers.

Up to you if you want to include a center channel
myself, i would, even if i just put a spare exciter in the backbox or something.
could be a small center channel speaker sitting on top of the backbox for that matter.

 

call it future proofing.

 

Use high wattage exciters.
Your forcing sound to come from plywood.
The higher you can drive them the better, but driving low watt ones too hard means you replace them a lot.

 

And buy a USB volume knob
Once you realize you have cab audio that can shake the house, the rest of the house might prefer you to turn it down.
USB volume knobs make that a snap to do on the fly, nothing to configure or set up, just turn the knob