16 replies to this topic

[Pmax65]

The intention of this message is to help any NVIDIA owner who have ball stuttering when the "FPS Limiter/Vsync" is set to 1 that who doesn’t want to enable the "Force exclusive Fullscreen Mode" VPX option because of its compatibility issues.

I apologize with whom who are bored to read about this recurring issue, but in this case I believe that this worth the time to read it to forget that "Force exclusive Fullscreen Mode" option.

 

I admit that I’m no way an expert in this kind of issues and I thank very much flupper1 who helped me to get the cabinet working with the "FPS Limiter/Vsync" set to 1 (before I was always using this set to 0 disabling the vertical synchronization on the video stream). Following his hints the tables were well working, but (as many know here), with that setup the debugging was adverse because of the bad behavior of VPinMame and (at least in my case) by a strange behaving of PinballX when some tables were closed, which didn't remove the backglass server sometimes. More, other tables (those using FlexDMD for example) didn't work no more on my cabinet, so I decided to investigate a possible solution that didn’t involve the damned "Force exclusive Fullscreen Mode", and I finally got a very smooth ball movement with Vsync enabled without enabling "Force exclusive Fullscreen Mode".

 

Let me specify that my setup was well oversized for speed, that is, without Vsync enabled the FPS were set about around 140/150 in most tables. That was the reason that for a long time I played without this option. The only artifacts that I had were with some tables (such those of flupper1) which involved lots of wide area flashes which where turning on and off in less time than the one used by the video frame transmission on the HDMI bus. The artifacts were detectable as temporary horizontal lines of changes in brightness (vertical lines with regard to the table, considering that in a cabinet setup the monitor is rotated 90 degrees).

 

For reference, my cabinet setup is:

 

CPU:  Intel Xeon E3-1240 V2 @ 3.4GHz server

Memory: 16 Gbytes RAM

I/O board: VirtuaPin™ Digital Plunger Kit V3 via USB port

GPU: GTX1060 with 3Gbytes video RAM

Monitors:

           Table: Hannspree Hanns.G HL 407 UPB 39.5" Full HD 8.5ms via HDMI interface.

           Backglass: Philips 273V5LHAB via HDMI interface with audio streaming.

           DMD: Generic 32V3H-H6A 1280 x 720pts 10" LCD Screen Display Monitor via HDMI interface.

Operative system: Windows 7 Professional 64bits

 

After my investigation, trying some changes in the video card setup, I discovered that contrarily to what is suggested here:  https://vpforums.org...showtopic=38683 , I had the three monitors working incredibly well not using their native 60Hz Vsync signal, but using instead three different vertical scan frequency which are prime numbers among them. I suspect (it’s just a mere hypothesis, a suspect, I’ve no clue about it indeed) that NVDIA Windows driver has some issue on handling simultaneous triggering of Vsync signals. My suspect is just based on the fact that using only one monitor (no matter what it was) the issue was no longer present.

 

It sufficed to set them to different frequency to highly reduce the ball stuttering, but since NVIDIA GPU has a tool to adjust the vertical scan rates for any monitor, I set the Table monitor to 59Hz, the backglass monitor to 61Hz and the DMD monitor to 53 (those are the closer prime numbers around the native monitors 60Hz Vsync signals) and now everything works incredibly well. The VPX FPS stands around those 59Hz pointing out that the synchronization is active and (the most important) flupper1’s Whirlwind table (the artifacts most affected table in my case) works really great.

 

I attached to this message a walkthrough instruction on how to set the different Vsync signals using the NVIDIA tool, where I also included a table with prime numbers for those not accustomed with mathematics.

 

I hope this help those who owning an NVIDIA card are still forced to use the "Force exclusive Fullscreen Mode" option and wanted for a long to forget it. I hope this will work for you too.

 

Have great days, and enjoy your tables.

 

Massimo

Attached Files

•  NVIDIA Change Vsync Frequency.pdf   301.05KB   257 downloads

Edited by Pmax65, 30 May 2022 - 09:01 AM.

[alessandro1971]

Ciao e buongiorno,

grazie per questo tuo articolo così dettagliato e prezioso.

Io ho quasi finito di auto costruirmi il mio Virtual Pinball, sto avendo i tuoi stessi problemi di balbuzie della palla. Certamente i tuoi consigli mi saranno d'aiuto e mi risolveranno i problemi. Qualora avessi bisogno di aiuto posso contattarti?

Appena potrò allego le caratteristiche hardware e software del mio sistema.

 

Grazie anticipatamente per il tuo aiuto

Alessandro

[Pmax65]

Ciao Alessandro,

non c'è problema, se posso esserti d'aiuto, volentieri.

Per i disturbi dei  teleruttori hai poi sistemato?

 

Buona giornata.

 

Ciao,

 

Massimo

[tgx]

I have a monster rig and I still get ball stutter but it is table dependent often involving tables

with a lot of reflections or flasher effects. Some tables that have stutter are just basic EM tables

with no PuP or anything, while something ridiculously intensive may be smooth as silk. Simply no

rhyme or reason. Looking forward to trying this.

[Pmax65]

Hi tgx,

 

first of all, let me tell you that I don't know your knowledge in this context, and maybe that I'm trying to teach the cat climb the roof, so don't offend if my suggestions maybe obvious and silly to you, in no ways I'm trying to consider you a rookie, also because I'm too not that an expert.

 

The first thing I would do to solve the issue, it is to analyze the performance of your system to establish where is the bottleneck. 

Did you check the CPU cores performance and memory usage  while those table were running?

 

Just to say: I found many tables with lots of timers set to very fast intervals in the range 1 to 5 ms that are very time consuming and those table gave me stuttering too even after this mod. I usually increase those timers interval, and setting them even to prime numbers between them it avoids concurrent routines calls, especially in case they are used to simulate flashes or lighting that are really little perceptible by our eyes when filtered by the monitor frame rate. 

I hope you can fix your issue soon and enjoy your tables.
 

Have a great day.

Massimo

[alessandro1971]

Buongiorno Massimo,

sei davvero molto gentile, disponibile e preparato, grazie moltissimo.

 

Per quanto concerne i disturbi dei teleruttori, avevi ragione ...... collegando un oscilloscopio digitale all'uscita di un teleruttore per volta sono stato in grado di vedere i picchi di tensione che facevano impazzire il VirtuaPin™ Digital Plunger Kit v3.......in pratica erano di circa 400v-450v per una frazione di secondo. Risolto quasi al 100% applicando i circuiti RC che mi hai consigliato. SEI STATO UN GRANDE !!!!

 

Ieri sono tornato molto tardi dal lavoro e non avevo avuto modo di fare le prove, questa mattina di buon ora sono sceso in garage per smanettare un pochino al VP. 

 

Mi ero scordato di dirti che il problema di vedere la palla muoversi a scatti avveniva solo se caricavo le tavole tramite il PINBALLX, se invece lanciavo le tavole direttamente da Visual Pinball tutto andava meglio ma non bene.

La prima cosa che ho provato è stata quella di scollegare il monito del BG e quello del DMD..........come per magia la palla ha smesso di andare a scatti.

Dopo di che ho collegato il monitor del BG e lanciando le tavole tutto continuava ad andare bene. Come già avrai immaginato quando ho collegato il monitor del DMD tutto ha ricominciato ad andare malissimo.

 

A quel punto ho attivato il FPS Limiter/Vsync ad 1, ho modificato la frequenza del PF, BG e DMD come consigliato, è migliorato notevolmente su parecchi tavoli dove precedentemente era impossibile giocarci. Poiché il problema si è manifestato quando ho inserito il monitor del DMD ho voluto fare una prova che ha dato i suoi frutti.........in pratica gli ho impostato anche il numero di colori a 65.536..........TUTTO perfetto su qualsiasi tavola io faccia partire sia direttamente da VP che caricata attraverso PINBALL X.

 

Impostando a 2 il Maximun pre-rendered Frames mi accorgo che risulta ancora più fluido tutto.

 

Cosa ne pensi del fatto di aver diminuito il numero dei colori del DMD?

Secondo te perché moltissimi problemi erano collegati al fatto di far avviare la tavola tramite PINBALL X ?

 

Ovviamente devo ringraziarti per gli eccellenti consigli, per essere stato molto gentile ed aver condiviso le tue esperienze per aiutare gli altri utenti come me.

 

Grazie infinite

Alessandro

[Pmax65]

Ciao Alessandro,

 

fa piacere sapere che hai sistemato il problema dei disturbi con i filtri RC. Se hai ancora qualche disturbo, puoi provare a filtrare con ulteriori resistenze e condensatori direttamente sugli ingressi del VirtuaPin™ Digital Plunger Kit v3 e vedrai che non ci saranno più problemi.

 

 

Per il problema della palla a scatti: è curioso che te lo facesse più sotto PinballX. Curioso nel senso che la cosa farebbe pensare a un problema di scarsa memoria, perché una volta che PinballX ha lanciato il VPX esso dovrebbe rimanere in background a intercettare solo i tasti, il che non dovrebbe impegnare molto il task manager.
 

 

Per i colori del DMD non saprei che dire, che scheda video hai installato?
Di quanta memoria video dispone?

 

 

A me il problema della palla a scatti è rimasto solo in rare tavole, dove sembra esserci un problema di buffering dei campionamenti audio. Dico questo, solo perché a me lo fa soltanto la prima volta che un particolare effetto sonoro campionato dal Controller VPinMame viene eseguito dopo che il tavolo viene lanciato e restando in quella sessione di simulazione non lo fa più. 

Non so se sia opportuno continuare qui questa discussione in italiano, forse sarebbe meglio che continuiamo in privato, magari sempre passando dal VPforums, ma usando i messaggi privati. In fondo siamo ospiti di un forum in lingua inglese e non vorrei che questi messaggi in italiano possano infastidire qualcuno che non sa leggere l’italiano in un thread inglese.
 

Buona serata, spero che lì da te ci sia meno caldo umido di quanto non ce ne sia qui in pianura Padana.

Ciao,

Massimo
 

Edited by Pmax65, 27 July 2022 - 07:09 AM.

[TeslaDave]

This technique made a real improvement on the beautiful Batman'66 table for me. Many thanks Pmax65. 

[garnel]

Just curious - what's the problem with using "Force Exclusive Full Screen"? To enable 10 bit color, it's required.

My playfield is an LG 42" OLED running at 120hz in a 3 display cab with an EVGA RTX 3070 GPU.

Haven't experienced any compatibility issues with this setup.

 

I am going to try your refresh rate changes on my other cab - it uses a Vizio 40" 4k 60hz display with an ASUS RTX 2070 GPU.

 

Thanks,

garnel

[tgx]

Wanted to post back that the refresh settings do have a large impact on ball stutter.

I also note that at random times, Windows has dropped my custom refresh rates and

reverted to default for the monitor. If you notice stutter return at a random time, check

that that your refresh settings are still what you think they are.

 

I have also wondered if stutter is the result of 'strobing' effects created by micro-delays during refresh. The prime number

settings minimize it as it places the refreshes farther apart.

 

One thing I have noticed recently is if a table has 'motion blur' on the ball and the ball

has a ball shadow associated with it, I also will see stutter. I disable motion blur.

[garnel]

I've been gone for a few months - played hell getting my new pinball computer set up and needed to get away from it for a while.

 

Anyway - everything is working now. Upgraded computer with a Ryzen 7600x and an RTX 4070. My playfield is an LG 42" OLED running at 120 HZ.

Running VPX 10.8.0 - 32 bit GL version with DOF, 7.1 SSF, and all the toys.

 

Absolutely no stutter on any table I've run so far - none - exclusive fullscreen is NOT enabled for any display, Just left Frame Pacing at the VPX default setting.

Nor do I need to assign cores with "Pinaffinity" to prioritize VPX like in my old computer to reduce stutter. 

Edited by garnel, 20 November 2024 - 05:00 PM.

[Roadblock]

I performed a similar upgrade plus going from 1080p to 4K 144Hz.

Absolutely love it!

[BostonBuckeye]

I was able to change my backglass monitor from 60Hz to 61Hz but I am not able to change my 144Hz playfield monitor to a prime number. The screen turns black when I try. Any suggestions?

[wrd1972]

Use a higher quality HDMI. I had to get one for my 4k 120hz display due to that very symptom.

[BostonBuckeye]

Use a higher quality HDMI. I had to get one for my 4k 120hz display due to that very symptom.

Thanks. I will try that.

[Tesla]

Use a higher quality HDMI. I had to get one for my 4k 120hz display due to that very symptom.

 

Like in the other thread about not all switches and buttons being the same ...

I tend to think the same about cables (especially high-speed HDMI and DisplayPort cables).

 

My solution for years-now is to just buy name-brand max-perfect HDMI-cables, and use them everywhere (Home-Theater, gaming-rigs, Pinball-cabinets, whatever). CM is a real established-company. Their cables are affordable and proven dependable over the years. I keep some of their spares in the closet. 

 

You know "the cable is good" when you install one of these. To for-sure be able to do 4K, HDR, HD-Audio ... 6-ft is a good length. Use a 3-footer when you easily-can, and only use a 10-footer if you must.

Their DisplayPort cables are also high-quality and nice and they have the optional DP-plug locking-feature.

[BostonBuckeye]

 

Use a higher quality HDMI. I had to get one for my 4k 120hz display due to that very symptom.

 

Like in the other thread about not all switches and buttons being the same ...

I tend to think the same about cables (especially high-speed HDMI and DisplayPort cables).

 

My solution for years-now is to just buy name-brand max-perfect HDMI-cables, and use them everywhere (Home-Theater, gaming-rigs, Pinball-cabinets, whatever). CM is a real established-company. Their cables are affordable and proven dependable over the years. I keep some of their spares in the closet. 

 

You know "the cable is good" when you install one of these. To for-sure be able to do 4K, HDR, HD-Audio ... 6-ft is a good length. Use a 3-footer when you easily-can, and only use a 10-footer if you must.

Their DisplayPort cables are also high-quality and nice and they have the optional DP-plug locking-feature.

 

Thanks. I am going to order two of the CM DP 6 ft cables and see if this makes a difference.