27 replies to this topic

[Arcade Freak]

hi, 

 

I'm a big fan of the Amiga versions of Pinball Dreams and Pinball Fantasies.

 

Maybe it's a ridicolous question in terms of quality, but has anyone ever think about to make brandnew versions of these really old tables ?

 

I know that Terry is working hard on the Silent Hill table, but is it totally exaggerated to ask, if there is ever any chance to get a real new version of Ignition (for example), that makes use of Pin Event ?

I wonder what the full support of BAM, DOFLINX and PE can do with such old tables, possibly with PUP packs, etc. 

 

I use his default.cfg on it (Ignition 1.11) in cabinet mode, but I don't get it. The planets are missing, and the dot matrix is completely wrong.

(I have no skills in programming or scripting)

 

Is it at least possible that anyone with knowledge can take a look at this one ?

http://www.pinsimdb....le-396-ignition

 

There's also a VP version, but the FP version seems to be more advanced. 

 

[chepas]

Where is the VP version? I wasn't aware of one when I started to do it on VP but I only looked for the Nightmare.

 

How well do you know Nightmare? I've got one that I will be trying to finish up soon and I was working on it last night.

 

It's going to be a case of going back and watching a couple of videos of the game because it's been that long.

[Arcade Freak]

VP versions are here: https://irpinball.org/pcgames.htm

 

I know them as far as I remember from playing the Amiga versions back then.

The best 4 out of 8 are Ignition, Nightmare, Million Dollar Game Show, and Stones'n Bones (imo)

In 200x I saw the (early) FP versions of it, but only played in Portrait/Landscape at that time. 

 

Last year I switched to Cabinet Mode (with Terry's Default cfg for BAM) and it looks much better now, but far from perfect.

Therefore I asked for a new shiny version which possibly include DOFLinx and even Pin Event. 

 

In case you make a (better) VP version of Ignition also, don't forget that this table has better music than the original in Future Pinball !

[chepas]

I see, thanks, had no idea they were done that long ago...

 

I'm quite a way through now but I spent quite a while yesterday redoing the playfield gfx / plastics but it looks a bit more like the original now, doesn't play too bad either...

 

[Arcade Freak]

Do you test it with VPX 10.7 also in Cabinet Mode ?

[chepas]

It should be fine in Cabinet but I can only test the view, everything else would be an addon as far as I'm concerned because I don't have a cabinet.

 

The display can run in full screen so you don't need to have a backglass, so I won't bother making a B2S either.

 

I'm planning on getting this game done next. It's playable now, but I don't think the ball locks are done properly, so I just need to run through that. I have to do some work on pausing music, at the moment it's resuming the start of a track, not from the resume position. Once those two things are done then it will just be tweaking to get the scoring right, on the bonus side of things mainly. Oh and the Score Bonus screen I have to do, I'm sure I did this a while back but I think the work on that got deleted last week by accident. That bonus you can collect in the scoop and end of ball.

[Arcade Freak]

To be honest, in my opinion a true remake MUST run in Cabinet Mode with at least 2 screens. As far as it goes it SHOULD support all goodies we have today like DOFLinx, 3D-Ball-Rolls, SSF, and PUP-Packs if possible. Also new textures like the planets are a nice addon. A remake doesn't have to look like the original at all costs. Some authors even make new 3D-models not found in the original that improve the whole experience. 

 

Anything less than that do not justice to the great legacy of the Amiga Pins.

 

If there is a project like this, I would support it with overdubs for the original music (as in Ignition), cause I work in the realm of soundtrack/SFX.  

[chepas]

Oh, you're one of those, one of those who want the Moon on a stick...

 

A true original for this game is an alphanumeric display on a single screen, because it was a single screen game.

[Arcade Freak]

 

 

Oh, you're one of those, one of those who want the Moon on a stick...

 

No. I'm one of those who like to (read: like to) see a remake that deserves the word "remake" on it. 

You're one of those who believe that Impossible Mission can't get any better than on the c64. Perfectly wrong.

If everyone thought/think this way, we never got/get free fanbase projects which really aim for the maximum. 

There are plenty of examples for it and there is a legitimate demand for it, because there are some games in history, 

which simply deserves it (and not only for pure nostalgia); and PD is one of these imo. 

 

It's fine if you say "but that costs me too much time on it", hopefully others won't.

How much time do you think -

- the guys on remix64 spent for THE remix ?

- the guy on the IM Remake spent for the 3D-Models ?

- I've spent on the soundtrack for IM ?

- Terry spent on his tables up to now (to name a popular example here) ?

You get the idea ?

 

 

 

A true original for this game is an alphanumeric display on a single screen, because it was a single screen game.

 

Then I suggest you go and catch an Amiga500 on ebay (if your're not already own one) or install WinUAE.

You'll be perfectly happy.

 

[chepas]

Why would I buy an Amiga just to play the original? I've had 4 or 5 in my time and the first one was in 1991.

 

 

 

No. I'm one of those who like to (read: like to) see a remake that deserves the word "remake" on it. 

 

You're the one stamping the word "Remake" on it........ Again, I will point out you're far too needy, hence wanting `The Moon on Stick`.

 

Split virtual pinball building into two groups, one group just likes playable games and the other just like games they can look at which aren't playable (Future pinball)

[Arcade Freak]

 

 

Why would I buy an Amiga just to play the original? I've had 4 or 5 in my time and the first one was in 1991.

 

sarcasm smilies needed? Formulated general and exaggerated. If you like playing it (if...) on single screen with an alphanumeric display then I suggest playing the original.

It simply doesn't make any sense to me. 

 

 

 

You're the one stamping the word "Remake" on it........ Again, I will point out you're far too needy, hence wanting `The Moon on Stick`.

 

stamping it on what, on your version? No.

Let's call it modern up-to-date remake then. And a modern up-to-date remake contains all the things I mentioned above.

No more and no less. 

 

Far too needy? Again: Are you aware of the amount of time that some table authors put in their fan-projects ?

What are the standards in real good tables today -> all the features I mentioned above. 

So what do you exactly mean with "Moon on a stick" here, care to elaborate ?

Time for a reality check I'd say.

 

BTW:Nobody wants to push YOU to enhance your table this way, the statement was meant in general. (to clear up the obvious)

 

 

 

Split virtual pinball building into two groups, one group just likes playable games and the other just like games they can look at which aren't playable (Future pinball)

 

Aah, I see. If I understand correctly, you want to say: 

- there's one group that just like playable games (VPX), but do not look at it

  (what are premium VPX table authors taking care of: 4K, HiRes textures, DOFLinx, SSF, PUP-Packs etc. (and Playability of course, but not as the only thing)

- there's another group that just like games they can look at (FP), but which aren't playable 

  (ok, it's perfectly clear to everyone, that Slamt1lt's and Terry's tables just aren't playable)

 

You are just kiddin' me now, right ?

 

BTW: You are aware that you're posting in a Future Pinball Forum at the moment ?

 

[chepas]

BTW: You are aware that you're posting in a Future Pinball Forum at the moment ?

 

Yes fully aware, your thread happened to be at the top whilst I was working on the game the other day.

 

Future Pinball compared to real world physics doesn't even come close, this renders ANY game unplayable, I don't care who made it and that's not a dig either, it's a simple fact, FP is unplayable due to shoddy physics.

 

This is why I say there are two types, one type like to collect and load tables and watch attract mode with all the bells and whistles and the other want a playable simulation, gfx and dressage add-ons can always come later and be done by somebody else to be frank.

[Arcade Freak]

 

 

Yes fully aware, your thread happened to be at the top whilst I was working on the game the other day.

 

You're working on the VPX version, not the FP version. You could drop a link to a VP thread to draw attention to it.  

Instead you're bashing any FP development for what reason? To tell us, that all FP tables are "unplayable" anyway?

 

 

 

Future Pinball compared to real world physics doesn't even come close, this renders ANY game unplayable, I don't care who made it and that's not a dig either, it's a simple fact, FP is unplayable due to shoddy physics.

 

You say this - while having installed the latest FP updates and features (BAM, PE) ?

 

Everyone knows that FP physics are not on a par with VPX. But it's not "unplayable". 

(I'm sure that's the reason why Terry put so much effort to his tables: because they're "unplayable" afterwards...)

 

Who is interested in perfect physics on Amiga tables anyway? Amiga pins were a mix of not-so-good table graphics,  

gorgeous sound/sfx, and a rubberband ball. Was anyone unhappy due to the non-existent physics? 

 

VPX is a builder mostly for mimic the real thing (as far as *possible*) which is slaved to roms on real tables. 

I always see FP as a builder for the pure fun factor of tables (as in the Amiga's), not for simulating real physics perfectly;

(read fun factor *especially* with PE features now). 

 

 

 

This is why I say there are two types, one type like to collect and load tables and watch attract mode with all the bells and whistles and the other want a playable simulation,

 

I don't watch attract modes. But I like to have bells & whistles during gameplay, and I'm sure I'm not the only one (to say the least).

 

 

gfx and dressage add-ons can always come later and be done by somebody else to be frank.

 

 

problem is: there's nobody else who comes later for adding dressage. Garimur's tables never got any update.

And so you're leave with best physics and nothing else. 

[chepas]

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

[StevOz]

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

 

Incorrect cheapas comment and not the current state of play.

 

https://youtu.be/P40NbWVjLsM

 

https://pinballnirva...-pinball.21203/

Edited by StevOz, 17 December 2021 - 11:33 PM.

[Arcade Freak]

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

 

Too bad, that FP is a growing system. 

So much for that who's pissing in the wind.

[chepas]

 

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

 

Too bad, that FP is a growing system. 

So much for that who's pissing in the wind.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree because anything growing on it are hacks. Official growing system stopped development years ago and it's just plugging holes at this point.

 

 

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

 

Incorrect cheapas comment and not the current state of play.

 

https://youtu.be/P40NbWVjLsM

 

https://pinballnirva...-pinball.21203/

 

 

Well...we've seen this before, but any actual playable game is still non existent. There was a Phantom of Opera table that made the same claims a few years ago, it's just polishing turd, keep going with the glitter though, whatever keeps you occupied innit.

Edited by chepas, 18 December 2021 - 12:17 AM.

[StevOz]

 

 

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

 

Too bad, that FP is a growing system. 

So much for that who's pissing in the wind.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree because anything growing on it are hacks. Official growing system stopped development years ago and it's just plugging holes at this point.

 

 

You're pissing in the wind, Amiga physics in nightmare is actually better than FP physics.

 

Incorrect cheapas comment and not the current state of play.

 

https://youtu.be/P40NbWVjLsM

 

https://pinballnirva...-pinball.21203/

 

 

Well...we've seen this before, but any actual playable game is still non existent.

 

 

Wrong again, Seawitch with the recently developed FP digital flippers version 2 is acutally playable, fancy that?

 

https://pinballnirva...tern-1980.6189/

Edited by StevOz, 18 December 2021 - 12:44 AM.

[chepas]

 

 

Wrong again, Seawitch with the recently developed FP digital flippers version 2 is acutally playable, fancy that?

 

 

Wrong my ass. That's not a good example anyway is it, you expect to be treading mud on an older game to a certain extent, best off providing a fan layout with some higher slope.

 

Anyway, that version I did isn't really tied to VP, if FP can handle the VP script (doubt it), then the display / game should work.

Edited by chepas, 18 December 2021 - 04:59 AM.

[TerryRed]

Guys like Chepas, Thalamus and others who are all about "realism" (and some are about VPX fan-boy'ism) will never like FP at this point no matter what improvements are made to the physics (not to mention everything else). Even if you had a FP table playing exactly the same as an nFozzy physics VPX table... at this point they still would not want to bother. There's no point in trying to convince them otherwise, even though they don't actually have a clue what has been accomplished recently or what BAM is even capable of (which has changed drastically in the last 2 years). Newer physics updates are doing similar methods to nFozzy (within FP's abilities through BAM)... and some on the VP side has been surprised by it.

 

Is it as good as VPX for realism... I'll never claim that. But its a dramatic improvement. I can make my shots very nicely... can do most flippers tricks... no more fully on/off flippers.. dynamic coils... lots of settings and tweaking can be done in script dynamically now. I haven't been able to adapt it to my tables yet to my own satisfaction... but it'll get there. I'm not a physics guy though... and never will be so its never been a priority to me. But I also don't get my jollies by going on forums and bashing other apps (or people's creations on those apps) in dick'ish ways. If I was... I'd be here all day going on about the things I don't like about VP.... but I hate when people do that crap (and why I hate when people ask why I create on FP instead of VP... I can do either if I wanted)

 

In the end... it comes down to how one likes what they play. If they don't like it... it is what it is. Some will never like FX3,etc for the same reason. No point in going on in endless lame debates... and no point in devaluing what others enjoy because it doesn't fall within our own sense of what's "fun" or cool or realistic,etc.

 

I do what I like and create on FP-BAM because it's fun for me. The same things I want to do unfortunately "can't" be done on VP no matter what anyone hopes for... so it won't happen. I'm not interested in trying to make a "realistic" pinball game (physics or otherwise)... anyone who sees what I do with Silent Hill or RetroFlair 2 should know that by now.

 

 

I'm honestly eagerly awaiting VPE in the future and hope we can all move on from our beloved pinball editors one day (not a knock to VP devs or ravarcade... you guys are superstars). Maybe then our creative freedom will be unleashed to it's full potential.

Edited by TerryRed, 18 December 2021 - 11:32 PM.