32 replies to this topic

[batch]

I haven't played a real pinball for a long time and I wonder if physics of posts below are realistic

 

On a lot of tables, when the ball enters an inboard lane, it often bounces and then goes to the outboard lane (and unfortunately to drain )

 

[wiesshund]

It is if i am playing

[ItchyRobot]

I don't know about the physics, but I have noticed that real tables have a distinct sound when the ball bounces off the top of metal rail ... it is kind of a 'ping' sound. I have yet to hear that in the VPX tables.

See this video for what I mean ... at times:
1:39
2:13
2:17

Edited by ItchyRobot, 17 July 2021 - 06:39 PM.

[anber500]

I have noticed similar behaviour after updating VPX a while ago. I'm not sure if there is a spin on the pinball, which sometimes makes it behave oddly. When trying to catch and cradle the pinball, I would notice the ball "crawling" up the flipper and drain when previously it didn't.

 

I was able to "fix" the issue on my setup by increasing the default Mass of the ball from 1 to 1.5

 

[wiesshund]

 

I have noticed similar behaviour after updating VPX a while ago. I'm not sure if there is a spin on the pinball, which sometimes makes it behave oddly. When trying to catch and cradle the pinball, I would notice the ball "crawling" up the flipper and drain when previously it didn't.

 

I was able to "fix" the issue on my setup by increasing the default Mass of the ball from 1 to 1.5

 

 

 

Depending on how the physics were initially set up, yes, some older tables might do well with a physics update.
10.7 comes with everything needed to update a table to use the physics that JP had worked out.
They work very well, and of course you can always tweak them

1.5 to 1.7 is a good mass to start off with

 

Also, in 10.7 walls have elasticity falloff like rubbers do
so if an older table is using wall pieces for rebound functions, lack of a fall off value might lead to them being a bit off

[anber500]

@wiesshund, Thanks for the explanation; it makes sense. 

 

I found that at 1.5 Mass, I'm a little more accurate and hit my targets more regularly. 

 

I found that VPX physics are perfectly in-between real machines and Pinball FX3 (which are too easy), but I find that the ball drains a lot more because of unexplained reasons than that of Pinball FX and real pinball machines. A little more tweaking is in order

[wiesshund]

 

@wiesshund, Thanks for the explanation; it makes sense. 

 

I found that at 1.5 Mass, I'm a little more accurate and hit my targets more regularly. 

 

I found that VPX physics are perfectly in-between real machines and Pinball FX3 (which are too easy), but I find that the ball drains a lot more because of unexplained reasons than that of Pinball FX and real pinball machines. A little more tweaking is in order

 

I usually run at 1.7 mass, err on the heavy side i guess

ball size of 50

 

but you have to use the rest of JP's physics setup for it all to fall together nice
He has a full set of physics materials, an importable table physics setup, and some script snippets
one of which, besides running the ball shadows and rolling sounds, also monitors and polices ball speed to prevent any radical and not realistic ball momentum

You of course have to adjust that max on a table by table basis

 

Also some flipper routines, to get better flipper action and tricks

 

 

You also have to custom tune the physics materials, like rubberbands, to what feels good with the length of rubber band you have

But 10.7 will also let you use rubber bands solely for the visual aspect, and use small wall pieces instead for the ball impacts
and then you can make a long rubber band in sections, having it be more energetic out towards the posts, and less energetic in the middle, because the walls now have falloff like rubberbands do

so that can let you get some really accurate rubberband rebounds going.

[jpsalas]

It was Clarkent who first introduced me to using a heavy ball and increase the flippers strength to get better shooting angles. I had been experimenting a lot with the flippers and that approach was what gave better results. But the experiments by nfozzy/roth also give very good results but since it involves many calculations done in the script then it is quite slow and you need a newer and more powerful cpu to handle those routines. And their routines for the rubbers are quite good too, but again they are done in the script. I found it was better to use the VPX physics and try to adjust them so the ball behave as close as possible to a real one.

[batch]

I haven't played a real pinball for a long time and I wonder if physics of posts below are realistic

 

On a lot of tables, when the ball enters an inboard lane, it often bounces and then goes to the outboard lane (and unfortunately to drain )

 

No one replied to my question

 

Just want to know if this ball behaviour is realistic (the same than on a real pinball machine)

Edited by batch, 18 July 2021 - 07:36 AM.

[jpsalas]

I guess so, that's why everyone on a real machine just nudge it as a mad man when the ball comes near that zone

[wiesshund]

 

I haven't played a real pinball for a long time and I wonder if physics of posts below are realistic

 

On a lot of tables, when the ball enters an inboard lane, it often bounces and then goes to the outboard lane (and unfortunately to drain )

 

No one replied to my question

 

Just want to know if this ball behaviour is realistic (the same than on a real pinball machine)

 

 

I did

If it is me playing, then yes, the ball will bounce right into the outlane, all it has to do is see rubber and it backs up and flips a uturn

[bigus1]

This is the area of maximum focus for me when I do physics. See on Mata Hari video above (and my mod) how the ball rebounds back into play from the side wood of the outlane. Most tables I work on have nowhere near enough elasticity on the wood.  Also, heavily mismatched frictions on the lanes' sides create spin and can cause the ball to roll up, around the bend and out, or "turbo" return lanes.  Scatter angles are really useful to make the outlane areas behave more naturally, but it takes time and patience to get right - there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution that I've found. So, to answer your question, how realistic it is totally depends on the setup, but it can be made to be very realistic indeed.

[RatSlym]

 

I haven't played a real pinball for a long time and I wonder if physics of posts below are realistic

 

On a lot of tables, when the ball enters an inboard lane, it often bounces and then goes to the outboard lane (and unfortunately to drain )

 

No one replied to my question

 

Just want to know if this ball behaviour is realistic (the same than on a real pinball machine)

 

 

Yes, my real machines do that a lot.

[pacboy]

Don't forget that the pinball machine feeds on your coins 

[Gravy]

I don't know about the physics, but I have noticed that real tables have a distinct sound when the ball bounces off the top of metal rail ... it is kind of a 'ping' sound. I have yet to hear that in the VPX tables.

See this video for what I mean ... at times:
1:39
2:13
2:17

This is a very good pickup, subtle sounds such as this are what really add to realism (or detract in its absence) even though the player's brain may not initially register why. I suspect this sound is much more noticeable on old EM and SS machines where the ambient sounds of the table mechanics are not muffled by other sound effects/music that might exist in modern tables.

I'd describe it as a "plink or tink" sound (I isolated the sound in audacity and it seems to be at least a double tink in quick succession on the initial bounce) when it it hits the top of the metal rail and then as it bounces down the rail it then "tinkles" several times in a split second as it rapidly bounces downward along the rail. I isolated the initial hit on the top of the rail in audicty and it seems to be at least a double tink in quick succession on the initial bounce, like a "t-tink".

I think you probably need to start a thread about this rather than hiding it away in this one.

Edited by Gravy, 19 July 2021 - 12:38 AM.

[wiesshund]

You just need to find a table that uses wire ball guides and has wire hit sounds

 

I know several of mine do

 

As far as double tapping

in general, no
It entirely depends on how hard the ball hits it, and how the wire guide itself is designed and anchored
and the angle the ball hits and what else it hits, what happens after it hits etc.

 

Plenty of times, on real tables, all i get is POINK! and the ball is off else where
usually towards the drain at warp speed

[Gravy]

You just need to find a table that uses wire ball guides and has wire hit sounds

 

I know several of mine do

 

As far as double tapping

in general, no
It entirely depends on how hard the ball hits it, and how the wire guide itself is designed and anchored
and the angle the ball hits and what else it hits, what happens after it hits etc.

 

Plenty of times, on real tables, all i get is POINK! and the ball is off else where
usually towards the drain at warp speed

If you could give an example of a VPX table that does this I'd like to check it out.

Regarding double tap, I was just going by the example in the video in which most instances have at least a double tap due to a rapid bounce between the outer edge of the slingshot and the wire, and then as it rolls down the diagonal wire guide under the slingshot you can hear it rapidly bouncing its way along the wire, the tinkling I described. I guess that not all tables sound the same though. I would assume that a wire guide would be unlikely to completely absorb all the energy of a direct hit on the top of the wire without some slight but rapid bounce of the ball.

 

[wiesshund]

 

You just need to find a table that uses wire ball guides and has wire hit sounds

 

I know several of mine do

 

As far as double tapping

in general, no
It entirely depends on how hard the ball hits it, and how the wire guide itself is designed and anchored
and the angle the ball hits and what else it hits, what happens after it hits etc.

 

Plenty of times, on real tables, all i get is POINK! and the ball is off else where
usually towards the drain at warp speed

If you could give an example of a VPX table that does this I'd like to check it out.

Regarding double tap, I was just going by the example in the video in which most instances have at least a double tap due to a rapid bounce between the outer edge of the slingshot and the wire, and then as it rolls down the diagonal wire guide under the slingshot you can hear it rapidly bouncing its way along the wire, the tinkling I described. I guess that not all tables sound the same though. I would assume that a wire guide would be unlikely to completely absorb all the energy of a direct hit on the top of the wire without some slight but rapid bounce of the ball.

 

 

 

Time Machine, Alien Warrior, Haunted Hotel

[Gravy]

 

 

 

 

Time Machine, Alien Warrior, Haunted Hotel

 

Very nice sounds, I tried Time Machine and Alien Warrior. Also just noticed that VPW's new Taxi table also has the metal guide sounds, I tried it with the ROM sounds turned off and it's much more noticable so perhaps many other tables also feature this and it is so subtle that its one of those subliminal effects that simply makes the table sound more realistic overall.

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

 

 

Time Machine, Alien Warrior, Haunted Hotel

 

Very nice sounds, I tried Time Machine and Alien Warrior. Also just noticed that VPW's new Taxi table also has the metal guide sounds, I tried it with the ROM sounds turned off and it's much more noticable so perhaps many other tables also feature this and it is so subtle that its one of those subliminal effects that simply makes the table sound more realistic overall.

 

A lot of table have sounds that too me are too quiet
I usually extract the sounds, normalize them, and put them back in