15 replies to this topic

[dielated]

Hi everyone - I am slowly working on modding No Good Gofers, and I am having a strange issue with the flippers; Whenever you hold one flipper down for an extended period, the other flipper will occasionally 'twitch', and flip unexpectedly, especially during high game-action.

For example if you launch the ball and hold down the right flipper, it is very likely the left flipper will twitch before the ball makes it around. The left flipper only seems to glitch when the right flipper is held (or presses hard) and vice versa.

I have altered the flippee script to be similar to another table thar I know doesnt have this issue. Bodydump had some numerical settings beside the flipper Sscript that I removed, did not seem to change my issue.

Is this an issue anyone has run into? I dont experience this with any other table... so I cant tell if its a table build issue (maybe I could try to add the nfozzy flippers and get better results?) or if this is maybe the result of a corrupted table? And maybe I should just try to rebuild it in a new file and hope my phantom issue goes away?

And advice is much appreciated

Edited by dielated, 23 April 2021 - 01:33 AM.

[Thalamus]

That table uses the rom solenoid callback for the flippers. So, what you are seeing is most probably pinmame related. Been a long time since I tried that table myself, remember I did some changes to it too. Not knowing exactly what version you've got. Have you tried the script that is on github ? Be careful, if your version isn't the same though.

[dielated]

Hey Thal - thanks for the help

The issue seems more prone to happen when many pinmame events are happening at once (busy lighting or slam ramp moving seem to cause it to be more likely to twitch) so this makes sense to me.

I see in the script that the flipper sol callbacks at the top are commented out and he has used sol = Sllflipper and slrflippper - is this what you mean? Is there a different way to script the flippers?

Or sorry are you thinking my pinmame is out of date and thats the script I should update from github?

[dielated]

Honestly Im not sure. The flipper script start off with solcallback(slrflipper)= "solrflipper"

[Thalamus]

Well. I see that I haven't reprogrammed the flippers on github. But, there are a few changes, it is a safe operation to test. https://github.com/s...pxtable_scripts - press the green code button. You will get a zip with many hundred of tables being changed. Just extract them to c:\temp or something. Pick the one that is called the same as the table. In the same fashion as you do for a backglass. Making sure it is renamed exactly like the table - with a vbs extention. Then load it up and play. Read more about it further down on that github page. It is mostly ssf improvements, but, not always.

Edited by Thalamus, 23 April 2021 - 05:41 AM.

[dielated]

Thats great thank you again - I used the updated script however the flipper issue remains.

(Thank you though I appreciate the ssf updates and if I can figure this out Ill be adapting your script going forward)

After some more experimenting I believe the flipper twitching is somehow caused by the slam-ramp solenoid. While holding the flipper button, when the slam ramp is being activated the flipper will twitch. Mostly the twitch will occur ~.5s before the slam-ramp drops. While the slam ramp is 'activated' (lowered) the twitch seems to happen frequently. It doesnt seem to happen when the slam ramp is not in use.

I am headed to work but afterwards Im going to dig through to see if I can learn how the slam ramp works, and if theres any overlap with the flippers...

[dielated]

Tried a few other things:
-Tried nng_12 rom
-I tried commented out the slam-ramp callbacks and subs, the table played without the slam ramp, I thought this fixed this issue but it did still glitch - although only once.

Checked vpinmame and I am using 3.3 , checked the bugs.txt to see if something like this was noted.

[dielated]

The only other thing Im finding that makes me wonder: according to JP here https://www.vpforums...showtopic=10303
"the constants sLRFlipper and sLLFlipper are defined in the core.vbs, like this:

'-- Flipper solenoids (all games)
Const sLRFlipper = 46
Const sLLFlipper = 48
Const sURFlipper = 34
Const sULFlipper = 36"

In the NGG manual the Power SOL 35 is 'ball launch ramp' and the Hold SOL 36 is 'not used'. Im wondering if 36 might be used after all? (Is there some way I can test that?)

[Thalamus]

Love the enthusiasm trying to figure these things out. Many ways of doing it. One of my favorite ways is to using a visual tool like a special db2s where you see the different hardware firing up. I know that both Wildman and BlackSad has made such tools. Believe Wildman called it light tester. But, right now VPU is under maint. so maybe just write that behind the ear for now. You can always just create a callback routine yourself. Then inside that sub you wirte something like

 

debug.print "Hello Sol XX is hit"

 

Then start the table. As it is running. Hit esc - you go th the debugger. Press the console button, enable the table again by clicking on the table, and continue to play. If you have done it correctly, you should start to see that debug message as it fires. I don't want to show you this in more details. At least not yet. Part of the fun with VP is learning these things and being able to do things that others have missed on the way. To me, it sounds like you've found something that is worth to investigate and fix. And up until now your thought process has been great, using the manual and comparing it to the machine vbs. In some machines, you are able to run a test of the solenoids via the rom menu too. NOT saying that this one has, but, giving you different options.

Edited by Thalamus, 23 April 2021 - 05:58 PM.

[dielated]

Thanks again.

What I learned from the debugger is that something else is definitely triggering the main flipper solenoids. I changed the syntax from SlRflipper and Sllflipper to Sol 46 and 48 and they are the same. I also made sure to add NoUpperLeftFlipper and NoUpperRightFlipper under the 'vbm' line (as per nofzzy in the fast-flip threads) to make sure that slam ramp solenoid wasnt somehow using those.. I dunno, I am running out of ideas lol.

I tried some slightly different flipper routines from g5k's AFM (I figured another WPC95 machine with fast flips enabled) and got the flippers working again fine. They get the same phantom signals but they flippers remain in the 'up' position.

Still thinking on this one.. If I wasnt so sure it was actually a glitch/error (if I was walking someone else through this) I would probably assume their flipper buttons were set up poorly...

[Thalamus]

My next question is - do you really need those flippers to be solenoid controlled ?

[dielated]

No if it means they wont twitch I would go for not - I know I will have to program in a workaround to shoot the sand trap / stop the wheel.

I did try to figure out how to add a non-sol controlled flipper (looking at em tables) but couldnt figure out how to do that just yet.

Another fellow suggeated adding the nfozzy flippers because they are called a little differently? Id just hate to put the time in just to have it still be not really usable..

[Thalamus]

Well, my next tip is. You obviously downloaded a whole lot of scripts. There are more than a few tables there where the solenoid flippers has been disabled. (commented out). Flippers in VP does at least the task, flipping of course. And often a second, related to exampe, lane change, video mode. That means, they are sending a signal when pressed. You are looking for pulse something.

 

By now I should probably start to look at his myself. I'm kind of just guessing at the moment. It might very well be that I'm simplifying the issue. But, I still think it is good for you investigate this a bit further before giving up so to speak.

[dielated]

Can you recommend a more modern table that uses the flippers this way? I have been looking through different scripts but I didnt recognize a non-EM table that wasnt using similar solenoid calls for the flippers. I looked at the simple flipper script in 4 million bc, but I wasnt able to put it together in my script in a way that the flippers would work, at least on my first two trys.

If I could get non-sol flippers working without the glitch then I would know thats what my workaround should be and I could go from there - if I still had the glitch with the vp flippers I would probably be getting closer to giving up

[Thalamus]

Hmm. Not exactly what I was thinking about as an example. But X-Men LE 1.0.3 and probably 2.0.1 has at least values for the solenoids in the table and you see the old code vs the new - not a good example for what I was thinking about. I kept having an old version of Scorpion in my head for some odd reason.

 

I should really look at the thing your struggling with - I might not have understood what you're seeing.

Edited by Thalamus, 23 April 2021 - 11:09 PM.

[dielated]

Hm, yes I see xmen looks a little different, but from what I can see it is still using Solcallouts 15 16 for the flippers. I thought maybe nfozzys scared stiff had this accomplished but that script reads like a dixtionary to me... ill keep looking through and trying other ways.

I think this issue should be reproducible in the original version (hold down a flipper and wait) or I can make a video of the issue or send you my recent copy saved with 10.7 (or other reccent saved in 10.6)