159 replies to this topic

[jpsalas]

File Name: JP's VPX8 Physics

File Submitter: jpsalas

File Submitted: 17 Oct 2020

File Category: Table Templates

Why new physics settings?
For several years I have been using the default VPX physics, which are explained in the file PhysicValues.txt, and they are quite good. But there were always a few things that I always felt they could be better. Many other authors have made their own changes and all them are quite good (like ClarkKent, nFozzy and Rothbauer). But I wanted to use what VPX has to offer, and simply adjust some parameters to make the tables play a little closer to a real pinball with a few simple settings. I always felt the default physics made the ball feel more like a football (a soccer ball) or even a billiard ball, more than a pinball steel ball. The same for the flippers which were missing some functionality, and the shooting angles were not optimal.
 
Here it is what I wanted to accomplish:

• Stop the ball making strange stops and changes in speed or direction.
• Increase side to side action.
• Do some flipper tricks like drop catches, cradle separation and backhand shots.
• Consistent flipper shooting angles.
• Reduce ball rebound on top of a flipper when it is up.
• Better ball bounce on objects, mostly rubbers, both at higher and lower speeds.
• Easy way to control the ball speed.
• The settings should not hogg the CPU.

To do all these I wanted a set of values that should be the same on all the tables, older and newer, and they should be easy to add to a table. Rubbers should be rubbers on all the tables, they should not change elasticity or friction values, and the same applies to metals, plastics and wood. Flippers should work just as good on older tables than in new tables.
 
Please read the included PDF.
 
This is mostly for authors who want to try my physics on their tables.
 
Rev2: What's new? The biggest change is the routine written by JLouLouLou to enhance my flippers to be able to do any trick you may do with a real flipper. So, big thanks to him!. I have also done a few minor adjustments to the materials.
 
 
 

Click here to download this file

[toxie]

Wow, good stuff.. Do you think we should also update the builtin example tables?

[toxie]

..and just general feedback: all those released tables play very well IMHO (plus, of course, i once again have to point out the insanely small filesizes (while at the same time looking extremely good), and also the nice customized looks like on T2!)

[JBear272]

Played all of your tables Today, I am a fan. Very well done!

 

I cannot wait to see more from you with the 3.0 physics, simply amazing.

 

  

[jpsalas]

Wow, good stuff.. Do you think we should also update the builtin example tables?

 

Well, my physics are the result of several months, almost half a year, of testing and watching videos. But it is not what other authors may like. For now I should not touch the examples. I'll be adding those physics to more of my tables, and we'll see what other authors think

 

 

..and just general feedback: all those released tables play very well IMHO (plus, of course, i once again have to point out the insanely small filesizes (while at the same time looking extremely good), and also the nice customized looks like on T2!)

 

And the sizes have grown a little now, since I didn't compress the PNG files But If the source images use to be JPG then I don't see any reason so save them as PNG, since the quality will be the same as JPG and the size is høaf.

 

The reason the file sizes are so small it is because I use all of what VPX has to offer, I do not make primitives of ramps or walls, I only use primitives for objects that are mostly decoration. All the lightning, metal look are made by VPX, using a small HDRI image. I do not use huge stereo WAV sounds, since the stereo effect is also made by VPX So all my sounds a mono, and 22Khz, which is more than enough for mechanical and hit sounds.

[ClarkKent]

I just tried your physics in your new Terminator 3.0. I think it’s different but still not as on the real table. The ball stops way too fast on the flippers when rolling down the inlanes. The bounce on the flippers is too low. And I can still not backhand onto the ramps.

 

I still think there are some problems in the VPX physics. As far as I remember Mukuste, the guy who massively improved the physics back at the beginnings, announced several improvements which were never done unfortunately...

Edited by ClarkKent, 18 October 2020 - 09:00 AM.

[ludovids]

The consistency of flipper shots has improved significantly for me with this release, as compared to others I have tried. For example, flipping the ball up the left ramp should be an easy shot, and now it is.

 

I also really like the variable brightness via the Magnasave buttons. Makes it easy to get the amount of table brightness you want, as this seems to be a matter of personal preference in addition to being dependent on room brightness.

 

Thanks JP!

[javier1515]

I agree, the sudden stop on the flippers doesn't let the ball bounce from one flipper to another.

It is true that the pressure for shots on the ramps is now much better but the ball travels it at an excessive speed.

 

Please do not take this comment wrong, it is only a constructive criticism.

 

Juan Pablo Everything you do for the community is appreciated.    

[CARLOSGUIZZO]

What an awesome job, my friend!

 

Your contribution to the virtual pinball community is simply invaluable.

 

You are great!

[jpsalas]

I just tried your physics in your new Terminator 3.0. I think it’s different but still not as on the real table. The ball stops way too fast on the flippers when rolling down the inlanes. The bounce on the flippers is too low. And I can still not backhand onto the ramps.

 

I still think there are some problems in the VPX physics. As far as I remember Mukuste, the guy who massively improved the physics back at the beginnings, announced several improvements which were never done unfortunately...

 

 

I agree, the sudden stop on the flippers doesn't let the ball bounce from one flipper to another.

It is true that the pressure for shots on the ramps is now much better but the ball travels it at an excessive speed.

 

Please do not take this comment wrong, it is only a constructive criticism.

 

Juan Pablo Everything you do for the community is appreciated.    

 

 

About the flippers being hard: Yes, that's how I adjusted them. I found out an elasticity value of 0,85, together with the rest of my settings, was ok for hard or thin runner, and 0,95 for normal thick rubber. This is all preferences, and since the flippers are all different, you may need to adjust them a little for each table. The only parameters you may need to adjust are the start and end angles to suit the angles of the shots of the table, and for the elasticity or ball bounce you may use 0,95 for a more bouncy flippers, and reduce the falloff. The fall off in my settings goes from 0,5 on the posts, which are very bouncy, to 1,7 on the long rubbers, which absorbs a lot the ball speed. So by simply adjusting this falloff you may get the bounce you want on the flippers.

 

And another thing to get flipper passes from one in lane to the other you'll need to get the end flipper angle quite down too But then the shooting angles may change too. With the physics how they are in VPX you will always need to sacrifice something I stil think mukuste added the ball physics of a pool or a soccer game  

Edited by jpsalas, 19 October 2020 - 04:50 AM.

[JLouLoulou]

JPs, i'm agree with some comments for the flipper setting and is bounce, control and backhand. Can I suggest to you and all this setup for flip?

In counterpart, feeling of rebund in pf elements is very good. And using your script to have very responsive flipper bats with very hight power without high ball velocity resolve some problem for trajectory precision. Great Work!

 

Edit: I use 0.1 friction for flipper bats ( not 0.4 )


Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

Edited by JLouLoulou, 20 October 2020 - 04:21 PM.

[jpsalas]

I'm sure the flippers work fine with your settings, and by increasing the friction you'll increase the shooting angles, and you'll be able to do more backhands. But you may also increase the ball spinn, and I don't want to go back to have a ball that spins like mad, like a soccer ball or a pool ball. Then you'll need to increase the playfield friction to stop a little the extra ball spinn, but then the ball will loose some bounce on the rubbers, and you will need to increase the elasticity, and soon you'll have changed everything. A nice set of  settings is all about balance. Many authors use very high friction, and the tables play fine, because all the values are balanced. I tried to find a friction value that was balanced on all the objects, and to me it should be as low as posible, and a little higher on the rubbers, so the ball still is grabbed by the rubbers. I know the shooting angles in VPX will benefit from a  little more friction, but then the rest of the objects will need to be changed too, otherwise the ball will get too much spinn. 

 

I know my flippers are not perfect, I concentrated more in the shooting angles, and being able to do some normal tricks, like drop catches, post passes, backhands, and mostly that the shooting angles that are stable, and that they feel natural. Some tricks will be more difficult than others, and some imposible, like tap passes or tip passes, as they need some settings that will break the normal working of the flippers. You may do a tap pass by nudging . I know that's almost imposible in real pinball, but not in VPX Also I use higher end angles to get more predictable shots, but on some tables you'll need to lower the angles to suit the table. On some tables the flippers angles are very low so it is quite difficult to catch the ball. I have seen those low angles in PAPA videos where tables were used in competitions. But in VPX, lower end angles means poor backhands and strait up shots, and they work better with tables with a lot of targets on the sides. 

 

The main reason I use low friction on about everything is to try to get a more natural ball flow. Still there is enough friction to see the effects on the ball, but not too much that it stops feeling like a small metal ball. 

[JLouLoulou]

yes i know for Flipper bats friction, i make an edit. I used only 0.1.
I can make tip pass and backhand

Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

[javier1515]

Juan Pablo I totally agree with you regarding the precision of the shots, at least for me it makes no sense to try to hit a right ramp and you can do it once 10 attempts, always at my tables I have tried to make the flippers They are precise so that the sensation of the game is as pleasant as possible and not that you get frustrated by not being able to hit anything.

 

As you comment .. it can always be edited to adapt the flippers according to the needs of the table, I also thought that with a trigger via script I can reduce the speed of the ball when it travels the ramp 

 

Again I appreciate all the contribution and the time you dedicate so that this hobby continues to grow more and more. 

[wiesshund]

You see what you have started JP?

 

I will have to replace all of my tables within the month

And i have just got to the point where it isnt game over inside of 4 minutes  

[2borG]

I've been trying Physics v3.0 on some tables and many play much better than the originals.

I don't really know if it's more realistic or not, but the thing is that I would not play many of them because of the ball behavior (like a ping pong ball), but with v3.0 physics their are very fun to play.

Thanks JPSalas! Great work!!!

[wiesshund]

There are a few old EM tables, that i really like a lot, but at the same time, do not like the physics (does that make sense even?)
that i would like to try this on, when i get a chance, if i can figure it out.

Would like to try it on Home Run as a test.

[Samuel Villena]

Sorry, i'm really new in Virtual Pinball Stuff (i mounted a cabinet like 2 week ago, and I started in august, it was my first new about virtual pinball), so i don't know exactly what i need to do. I mean: If i install the new tables they have the new physics? Or must i place any other thing in visual pinball?

 

Most concrete: Do i need to place anywhere the vbs and vpp files that you post here, or are included in your new tables? 

 

Thank you very much. And, another thing @jpsalas, in your web the Avengers Table has wrongs links to vpforum, could you change it?

 

Thank you and have a great day! 

[wiesshund]

Sorry, i'm really new in Virtual Pinball Stuff (i mounted a cabinet like 2 week ago, and I started in august, it was my first new about virtual pinball), so i don't know exactly what i need to do. I mean: If i install the new tables they have the new physics? Or must i place any other thing in visual pinball?

 

Most concrete: Do i need to place anywhere the vbs and vpp files that you post here, or are included in your new tables? 

 

Thank you very much. And, another thing @jpsalas, in your web the Avengers Table has wrongs links to vpforum, could you change it?

 

Thank you and have a great day! 

 

In JP's 3.0 tables, all that is already in place

For other tables to have it, you have to edit the tables, unless the table author has uploaded a new version stating he has used JP's 3.0 physics

You would user the PDF file in JP's docs as a guide for how to change the table.

I would not recommend putting the VBS anywhere.
Use it as a template for modifying the table's script, as it will not just blindly work for every table as is.
Not all flippers for example, are operated via solenoid callback

 

the vpp file is an exported example of table physics, you would not put it anywhere per se, as far as your tables go
you would open a table in the editor and choose to import physics, and then point it to that file, and then save the table.

VPX will not just directly make use of it, same for the .MAT file, you would have to import that in materials manager, but it will not magically change things
you have to then go and reassign your table parts to use the imported materials.

 

It is not a drop in physics solution, but a little toolbox if you will, for table authors.
You can definitely use it, but it will entail you learning a little bit of table editing.

Make a copy of a table you have, and practice incorporating the physics on it, it will begin to make sense then.
 

[wiesshund]

I have been tinkering with it in stargate a bit, between working

Hand to change many existing audio statements, due to them using parameters defined in original sound routine
but not used or needed in JP's sound routine, or renamed parameters

Had to adjust plunger and autoplunger, as it no longer had the power to launch a ball properly
Due to mass change i am guessing

Had to modify flippers routine to suit the boards flippers

Still have to change a lot of small rubbers and surfaces to use new materials for physics after importing them to materials manager

Now the above is not finding fault with JP's physics at all
Just showing that this is not a drop in and and go type of thing that you toss in and call it done and have all your tables be physics 3.0, as there are probably other people wondering the same thing Samuel is.

You gonna learn some table editing in the process.

But, if i can do it, then you can also, cause i'm pretty clueless with this stuff.
Just copy the table before you go tinkering

 

 

Question though @

JPSalas

 

Do you recommend these flipper power values even for OLD EM tables that would have normally had weak and slow ramping and small flippers in real life?
Say something like Home Run?
 

Edited by wiesshund, 22 October 2020 - 10:58 PM.