28 replies to this topic

[NailBuster]

Ok,  So want to discuss with everyone the dilemma here.

 

So I seemed to have 'hacked' up a version of FP to allow for createobject.  This should allow for full access to PuP controller object and even direct DOF controller objects.   

 

it should even make it possible to add full ssf "ball rolling" sounds via activex... and a bunch of other cool things

 

BUT this also means that vpinmame/b2s can be used in FP,  which I'm hearing that the original author never wanted.  So i don't want to release the 'hack' if it goes against what he wants.....

 

BUT its also 10+ years old software... so its abandoned-ware I'd say... so that changes the thinking as well....

 

thoughts?

 

here's some videos: 

 

https://youtu.be/cymU5Ez1VMk

 

https://youtu.be/J_MSmiRTntk

 

Status Update:  I've worked with ravarcade and BAM now has a 'comobject' plugin that allows creation of comobject (with user selectable security settings!!).  So no 'hacking' of an exe is required and just using BAM is enough.  Testing has gone really well...let the good times rollll.....

Edited by NailBuster, 20 September 2019 - 03:17 PM.

[gimli246]

It doesn't look like a hack to  me if you are simply using code in the script.

 

The FP loading screen also says "the creators of FP do not condone the use of artwork, sound and music....."  

[djlunchbox]

Given what Ravarcade has done with BAM, that is probably the biggest form of "hacking the system"

 

the original author also never wanted the watermark to be removed, however it was and in the latest version of BAM it's removed from the original EXE.

 

Additionally Future Pinball is abandonware. The author no longer offers support and has essentially wiped his hands of the software. The company that purchased the software is defunct and the product it was intended to be applied too will never come to fruition. 

 

That said the community will no doubt be ok with whatever you can make happen to push FP into the new times and improve it. 

 

Understandable that you feel a dilemma however also realize FP is the picked on younger brother. It still gets very little respect in the VPin world, especially from "Zee Germans". With that said no one is clamoring to defend the "sanctity of Future Pinball". 

 

As a fan of EVERYTHING vpin, I feel what you're attempting and looking to accomplish will be a giant step forward for Future Pinball. 

 

I would also say you may want to reach out and work with Ravarcade to see if what you're doing can be implemented via BAM. 

Also more FP authors are active on GoPinball than here. I'd suggest opening up the dialogue over there too

[TerryRed]

What this opens up is the possibility to do more than what we can do with, for example DOFLinx. (DOFLinx still has it's own benefits)

 

It would allow for DOF and Pinup Player to directly be usable in the same way as VPX. So this means full direct PUP support (think Scotty Wics tables like Stranger Things SE, TLK, etc) which allows for Text / Scoring support. That would allow for VERY cool possibilities for a DMD replacement (not in the FP window itself, but in a separate window like Future DMD).

 

It also "may" allow for a more direct SSF implementation without needing PuP-Packs.

 

You could probably even use UltraDMD.

 

Of course...many may want VPinMAME to be used. Even if this is opened up... I don't see a flood of tables using it, as most FP tables already had the groundwork of their own code done. That said, it would be VERY cool to see for example SAM system implemented, or colourized DMDs, and of course external DLL / freezy / pupdmdcontrol support for rom based tables.

 

 

That said, authors like SLAMT1LT would still rather use his own code instead of the rom (and I would prefer that too, as I like what he does).

 

 

The biggest benefit by far would be the modern use of PuP's features.

 

 

I think 11 years is more than enough time to consider this an ok thing to do at this point.

Edited by TerryRed, 16 September 2019 - 05:36 PM.

[DJRobX]

It doesn't look like a hack to  me if you are simply using code in the script.
 
The FP loading screen also says "the creators of FP do not condone the use of artwork, sound and music....."  

Try running that code in your version of FP and see what happens.

[TerryRed]

 

It doesn't look like a hack to  me if you are simply using code in the script.
 
The FP loading screen also says "the creators of FP do not condone the use of artwork, sound and music....."  

Try running that code in your version of FP and see what happens.

 

 

Yah, gimli isn't a cabinet user, so he's probably not familiar with com objects, external apps and vbs scripts, pup script, ssf, or dof. He probably thought it was using something internal to FP.

 

FP users aren't used to the idea of using external apps with FP. Most FP users are now just catching on to needing BAM for tables.

 

(Gimli is like the BAM features master!)

[fripounet]

nativement Fp utilise une vielle librairie ( newton.dll version 1.53), "pirater" Fp serait de pouvoir utiliser la toute dernière version de newton nativement avec possibilité de réglage via gui du soft. donc obtenir toutes les sources du logiciel.

principe de fonctionnement newton : https://bakura.devel...hysique/newton/

github off de newton-dynamics : https://github.com/M...ewton-dynamics/

site officiel : http://www.newtondyn...orum/newton.php

 

alors bon courage......))

[TerryRed]

nativement Fp utilise une vielle librairie ( newton.dll version 1.53), "pirater" Fp serait de pouvoir utiliser la toute dernière version de newton nativement avec possibilité de réglage via gui du soft. donc obtenir toutes les sources du logiciel.

principe de fonctionnement newton : https://bakura.devel...hysique/newton/

github off de newton-dynamics : https://github.com/M...ewton-dynamics/

site officiel : http://www.newtondyn...orum/newton.php

 

alors bon courage......))

 

 

I'm Canadian, but I don't speak french.

[TerryRed]

 

It doesn't look like a hack to  me if you are simply using code in the script.
 
The FP loading screen also says "the creators of FP do not condone the use of artwork, sound and music....."  

Try running that code in your version of FP and see what happens.

 

 

I tried it..damn that's savage!

Edited by TerryRed, 16 September 2019 - 08:32 PM.

[gimli246]

 

 

It doesn't look like a hack to  me if you are simply using code in the script.
 
The FP loading screen also says "the creators of FP do not condone the use of artwork, sound and music....."  

Try running that code in your version of FP and see what happens.

 

 

Yah, gimli isn't a cabinet user, so he's probably not familiar with com objects, external apps and vbs scripts, pup script, ssf, or dof. He probably thought it was using something internal to FP.

 

FP users aren't used to the idea of using external apps with FP. Most FP users are now just catching on to needing BAM for tables.

 

(Gimli is like the BAM features master!)

 

 

Yea I am not used to addons and patches and such apart from BAM .  But what I meant is if the FP.exe program itself is not being directly hacked or altered and you are using code in the FP script to link to something else...I have have no problem with that....that is what BAM is doing in many ways , especially for VR and head tracking etc....so no surprise there.  Sorry for the confusion. 

Edited by gimli246, 16 September 2019 - 08:56 PM.

[Outhere]

Let's do it

Keep expanding all the horizons who knows what we come up with

 

we as in you guys that know how to code

[TerryRed]

 

 

 

It doesn't look like a hack to  me if you are simply using code in the script.
 
The FP loading screen also says "the creators of FP do not condone the use of artwork, sound and music....."  

Try running that code in your version of FP and see what happens.

 

 

Yah, gimli isn't a cabinet user, so he's probably not familiar with com objects, external apps and vbs scripts, pup script, ssf, or dof. He probably thought it was using something internal to FP.

 

FP users aren't used to the idea of using external apps with FP. Most FP users are now just catching on to needing BAM for tables.

 

(Gimli is like the BAM features master!)

 

 

Yea I am not used to addons and patches and such apart from BAM .  But what I meant is if the FP.exe program itself is not being directly hacked and you are using code in the FP script to link to something else...I have personally have no problem with that....that is what BAM is doing in many ways , especially for VR and head tracking etc....

 

 

This is what you are not understanding. FP was setup to restrict the usage of external activex com objects...so things like pup, vpinmame, dof, etc could NOT be accessed at all. The only reason why we can use anything like that is because of the method doflinx uses to access parts of FP's memory.

 

Even then, FP is still very restricted from being able to communicate to anything external. Things like FutureDMD or FPIntercept did it through OpenGL (which FP uses for its graphics API). This is a restriction built into the FP exe.

 

What Nailbuster has done is modified the FP EXE to allow the use of activex com objects... to allow FULL access to external apps such as DOF, PUP, SSF features (maybe), b2s server (maybe)...etc.

 

So this means direct and full access to pup and dof features (via table script commands, same as VPX) without doflinx needed to be an inbetween. It also may mean being able to use vpinmame. The script commands in the video REQUIRE the use of the modified EXE... or they won't work.

Edited by TerryRed, 16 September 2019 - 09:06 PM.

[gimli246]

I see...well that is different
I guess it depends on what constitutes abandonware...because 10 years or whatever is longtime.

[TerryRed]

I see...well that is different
I guess it depends on what constitutes abandonware...because 10 years or whatever is longtime.

 

The current selection of modified EXEs allow more objects to be used, different physics settings (among other things)...so it's not like we haven't seen any modified FP EXEs before now.

[gimli246]

 

I see...well that is different
I guess it depends on what constitutes abandonware...because 10 years or whatever is longtime.

 

The current selection of modified EXEs allow more objects to be used, different physics settings (among other things)...so it's not like we haven't seen any modified FP EXEs before now.

 

that is true...I was just going to say the same thing . Most if not all FP users are using or have used modified exe's for years.

 

Still it would be cool if BAM could do an "end around" whatever the FP bottleneck is...

Edited by gimli246, 16 September 2019 - 09:56 PM.

[Carny_Priest]

Modified exe to fix things that needed fixing - 2Gb memory address restriction, max object threshold, etc.

 

Modified exe for the watermark.  Dumb thing to not have as an option IMO, but arguably removing it was one reason Black washed his hands of FP

 

Modified exe to add VPM. Well, there is no uncertainty about Black's stance on the issue of support for rom emulation. 

 

I always thought there was no max duration on authorship when it comes to community works. Permission must be sought and if the author left the scene and can't be reached then, tough. Start from scratch. 

 

The executable that the community has access to is under standard copyright with Black as owner. Duration in the US is for life plus 70 years. I don't know what it is in other countries. I don't know the status of current rights. If the company that owns FP is no longer operational, that doesn't mean that there is not someone who owns the assets. Even if the source code is long gone, and I understand that this is the situation, it would be really good to at least for once get express written permission from Black to hack the current executable. Or to throw some collective community coin his way to free the copyright and place it under GPL or something if that's what it takes. I say do the right thing.

 

But I'm not the pinball police. Everyone is excited and warez will win out.

Edited by Carny_Priest, 16 September 2019 - 10:25 PM.

[TerryRed]

Modified exe to fix things that needed fixing - 2Gb memory address restriction, max object threshold, etc.

 

Modified exe for the watermark.  Dumb thing to not have as an option IMO, but arguably removing it was one reason Black washed his hands of FP

 

Modified exe to add VPM. Well, there is no uncertainty about Black's stance on the issue of support for rom emulation. 

 

I always thought there was no max duration on authorship when it comes to community works. Permission must be sought and if the author left the scene and can't be reached then, tough. Start from scratch. 

 

The executable that the community has access to is under standard copyright with Black as owner. Duration in the US is for life plus 70 years. I don't know what it is in other countries. I don't know the status of current rights. If the company that owns FP is no longer operational, that doesn't mean that there is not someone who owns the assets. Even if the source code is long gone, and I understand that this is the situation, it would be really good to at least for once get express written permission from Black to hack the current executable. Or to throw some collective community coin his way to free the copyright and place it under GPL or something if that's what it takes. I say do the right thing.

 

But I'm not the pinball police. Everyone is excited and warez will win out.

 

 

Many have tried to contact him numerous times over the years with no response... so it's not like no one hasn't been trying over and over again.

 

As others have said... I think he has simply walked away from it and wants nothing more to do with it. If he did, he would have responded about "something". Well he did actually.... he remarked about loving BAM which he had no previous knowledge about until he saw it on youtube (and even posted about it at gopinball).

Edited by TerryRed, 16 September 2019 - 10:52 PM.

[LynnInDenver]

I'd say give it a try for a release. Two things could happen: nothing, or he pipes up with "like" or "hate". I don't know which way that might go. On the one hand, BAM is basically running as "overlord" software to force FP to do something else. On the other hand, we're going to have to get into more hacking of FP itself - odds are that, at some point, Microsoft will try to deprecate 32-bit operation in some way or another in favor of 64-bit, or key bits FP needs will no longer operate themselves, and FP stops working without relying on similarly out of support software on old computers.

[TerryRed]

 

Just to be clear...the intent of this was to allow for full PuP features, DOF, SSF support directly in FP. Vpinmame just happens to also work in a basic test as shown in the video (I don't think Nailbuster cared about that, really).

 

I honestly don't see VPinMAME getting too much traction from FP authors...but you never know.

 

I care about SSF and PuP....and I would like DOF too, but DOFinx covers most of that nicely either way.

 

 

If another method could be used (not modding the exe) to do the same thing... I'm all for that.

Edited by TerryRed, 17 September 2019 - 12:13 AM.

[gimli246]

 

Modified exe to fix things that needed fixing - 2Gb memory address restriction, max object threshold, etc.

 

Modified exe for the watermark.  Dumb thing to not have as an option IMO, but arguably removing it was one reason Black washed his hands of FP

 

Modified exe to add VPM. Well, there is no uncertainty about Black's stance on the issue of support for rom emulation. 

 

I always thought there was no max duration on authorship when it comes to community works. Permission must be sought and if the author left the scene and can't be reached then, tough. Start from scratch. 

 

The executable that the community has access to is under standard copyright with Black as owner. Duration in the US is for life plus 70 years. I don't know what it is in other countries. I don't know the status of current rights. If the company that owns FP is no longer operational, that doesn't mean that there is not someone who owns the assets. Even if the source code is long gone, and I understand that this is the situation, it would be really good to at least for once get express written permission from Black to hack the current executable. Or to throw some collective community coin his way to free the copyright and place it under GPL or something if that's what it takes. I say do the right thing.

 

But I'm not the pinball police. Everyone is excited and warez will win out.

 

 

Many have tried to contact him numerous times over the years with no response... so it's not like no one hasn't been trying over and over again.

 

As others have said... I think he has simply walked away from it and wants nothing more to do with it. If he did, he would have responded about "something". Well he did actually.... he remarked about loving BAM which he had no previous knowledge about until he saw it on youtube (and even posted about it at gopinball).

 

yes at the youtube link

the comment is :

Chris Leathley

5 years ago

"Wow.. I'm the creator of Future Pinball and this is fricking amazing..."

Edited by gimli246, 17 September 2019 - 12:36 AM.