30 replies to this topic

[MaxAsh]

I've noticed that on some tables, especially VPX tables like Medieval Madness, I have significant Flipper Lag that makes the game much less fun to play. Some VPX tables (and most of my older VP9 tables) are fine. Because the lag isn't universal, I'm curious what might be causing it, and if anyone has suggestions? All of the tables run great, no lag in the actual game actions or gameplay aside from the flippers.

 

It's just a slight reaction lag between button press and flipper movement, which makes shots off the end of the flipper, for example, a pain to try and time. Seems really strange only a handful of tables would have the issue.

 

I've tried adjusting some of the flipper settings, ramp up time changes, etc. No luck. I don't think it's the computer, but it is getting older so I guess that's possible. (i7-920, 4GB RAM, GTS 250 1GB Video) Anyone have any suggestions on what to try? My kids love MM especially, and I simply cannot get it fixed.  Thanks

[STAT]

Try to optimize your Table, where you have Troubles:
Click on "Options" and ...

• Set "Elements Detail Level" to left (stepwise, until you get it better)
• Check "Use"
• 4x Anti-Aliasing SSAA "Off"
• FPS Limiter to "-1"
• SAVE TABLE - TRY - PLAY

 optimize.PNG   56.92KB   133 downloads

 

And maybe you should (recomend) upgrade your GPU, a GTX 1060 (does not cost so much) or anything like that will be much better

Edited by STAT, 04 July 2017 - 01:23 PM.

[Thalamus]

There is no doubt in my mind that you'll need to upgrade you Video card in order to enjoy VPX. Stat gave you quite reasonable advices, but, I doubt they solve your problem - better ? Probably, but no way resolved.

[STAT]

Yes, thats why i added "recomend" ... Elements Detail Level complete to the left isnt the Best Way (just maybe it works, but you will miss the Quality)

 

btw. you have an i-7 ... and then the "bad" GPU ... Upgrade

Edited by STAT, 04 July 2017 - 01:24 PM.

[MaxAsh]

Okay, thanks I'll go try that and see if it helps.

[rothbauerw]

Which version of MM?

Flipper settings can make all the difference. If other tables are working fine, then I'd have to think it could be the version and/or the flipper settings.

I would set coil ramp up to zero. After that strength, mass, and return strength need to be tuned for responsiveness and power.

[MaxAsh]

I tried adjusting the flipper settings, didn't have much luck. I have the newest VPX MM version. What I realized though, was that the table was defaulted to max/min slope of "10". I changed this to 8, and found that it slowed the ball down a little, which actually allowed for much better flipper/shot timing. I did some testing at 10 vs. 8 setting, and found that part of the "lag" was actually just the ball moving so fast across the flipper that it was almost impossible to time shots, even if you held the ball and then released for a shot. Given that so many other tables are fine, this may have been part of the problem.

 

As for the video card, I'm going to start looking around for a reasonably priced upgrade. I have no issues with games/graphics right now, so upgrading seems like something I won't rush into, but I figured I would need an update eventually, as better tables and software rolled out. I forgot to mention, I have a 2 screen + real DMD setup, in case anyone was wondering. I'll have to upgrade the whole rig eventually, but with 100+ tables running great, I don't want to mess with it too much right now. I may just build an all-new cabinet, then sell off the old one to a friend or something.

 

I'll continue to experiment with settings to see if I can tweak MM to perfection. I'd say it's much closer than it was, but not quite perfect yet. Thank you all for the advice, as always.

[Koplings]

try turning off vertical synch in your graphics card.  I know some people will say it may cause stutter but I did it and ive had no problems.  made a huge difference for me

[rothbauerw]

I have the newest VPX MM version. What I realized though, was that the table was defaulted to max/min slope of "10".

 

What author, what version?  There are many out there.

 

A slope of 10 seems way off.  A slope of around 6 would be much more appropriate for this table. 

[Capp]

try turning off vertical synch in your graphics card.  I know some people will say it may cause stutter but I did it and ive had no problems.  made a huge difference for me

 

Turning V Sync off worked for me,  i had flipper lag and turning this off eliminated it completely

[saskia]

just upgrade video card firstly,we were running a 1.25 gig card and the complicated tables had flipper lag..circus voltaire arabian nights t2 for example

i had a 16 gig system at that time,so my point is,even with a good amount of ram it was the graphics card,i would say try something at least 2 gig geforce 710 gd value for money

now running 24gig @ 1866 on a msi 4gb 970 gtx ..runs nicely,but now we need an hd monitor.....lol never ending story

hop eit helps ?

[mxd]

Hey Guys

 

I think I have the same issue.

 

So it looks like i'll be updating my GPU ( 560 to a 4G GTX 1050 Ti).

 

When playing some (feels like a high percentage) VPX games have flipper lag

 

An example I was trying was to hold a flipper down and do a "quick" release press, 

on VPX you get the sound but no/little flipper movement.

on VP9 you get the sound and "good" movement.

 

My GPU hasn't run out of ram and it's performance seems ok.

 

https://youtu.be/5i-7h90yUT4

 

 

pc specs

HP Z200 Workstation

Intel i7-870 CPU @2.93GHz (Quad Core)

16GB DDR3 Memory

SSD

Nvidia Quadro 2000 Back Glass

GTX560 Play Field 

 

 

thanks

Matt

[ganjafarmer]

Gtx560 can't handle VPX in 1080p for sure man, go with 1050 or even 1050Ti.

 

In game press F11, you should get 60fps solid for stutter free gameplay. Anything below refresh rate of your screen will cause stutter or visual lag.

 

And remember, it's always better to use 1 card for 2 screens, get rid of that second gpu, it's causing more problems.

Edited by ganjafarmer, 15 August 2017 - 01:25 AM.

[mxd]

Gtx560 can't handle VPX in 1080p for sure man, go with 1050 or even 1050Ti.

 

In game press F11, you should get 60fps solid for stutter free gameplay. Anything below refresh rate of your screen will cause stutter or visual lag.

 

And remember, it's always better to use 1 card for 2 screens, get rid of that second gpu, it's causing more problems.

cheers

 

My plan was the 1050 ti, at the moment I run 2 Power supplies as well (bloody HP mobo has proprietary psu connectors ), the good thing with the 1050 it requires less power than the 560.

 

I will grab a GPU on the way home and here's hoping that solves my problems

 

I will also drop down to one card for 2 monitors.

 

thanks again

[Drybonz]

Yeah, I'm guessing any amount of optimizing or tweaking you try to do will only frustrate you and waste your time until you upgrade that card.  After that, there are some existing threads with a lot of discussion on performance tweaking, and flipper lag, specifically.

[hauntfreaks]

there is also no such thing as no lag, its the nature of the beast.... anyone that tells you that they have "zero" lag , never plays real pinball.... 
when i go from a day of real pinball to the cab, it takes about 2 balls in and I dont feel the lag anymore... my wife on the other hand says it never goes away....
its just the sad reality... 


 

[ganjafarmer]

Some say they feel difference between 1ms pc monitor and 5ms tv screen delay, some of them are ganjafarmers.

 

For example my friend has a built in lag, when he play real pin he's late on flippers like 0.2s so it's not always GPU

[elabree]

Hi Hobbyist,

 

As a newbie (this is my 1st post ;-) I was searching through the forum to learn about flipper lag and found this thread.

I am trying things out in desktop mode, single monitor and midrange computer. And found everything works much better than I expected. No flipper lag at all.

My intention is to build a cabinet later on but during a tryout on a commercially available cabinet (I cannot afford) I noticed serious delay (estimate 0.2 - 0.5 sec.) on the left flipper only (the right one was fine). I have tried some tables on the previously mentioned PC and has no lag at all.

Until today: I downloaded Black Knight 2000 which has an animated backglass. It told be that the b2s server was not running, so I installed it. Now the game works but with serious lag on both flippers. Its even so bad (1 - 2 seconds) that the flipper gets stuck in the up position or the flipper moves when the ball has passed already.

 

I suspect that the b2s server while running an animated backglass just puts too much load on the GPU. For you this might be a way to test if the lag is caused by low GPU performance. Disable the backglass (don't know if that's possible) to see if you still experience lag.

 

Currently I think the timing path from flipper buttons to flipper action/display is critical:

a. time to readout the buttons / (scan frequency)

b. time to pass the button state to pinmame

c. processing time of pinmame

d. time to transfer flipper action to visual pinball

e. processing time of visual pinball

f. time to update the display (GPU)

g. HDMI/DVI to LCD (light)

 

I think the total delay must be lower than 0.2 s for reasonable responsiveness of the flippers. But lower is better of cause. Note that a typical TV screen (time g) will already cause about 0.1 s lag.

 

I assume that the software is optimized to have the shortest possible delay. Probably the complexity of the table has much effect because the scripts will be more complex causing a higher processor load. The complexity of the graphics (more computing power needed for rendering) will affect the GPU.

 

Another way to check if you GPU is not powerful enough for the table is by (temporary) lowering the screen resolution. When you halve that the rendering will take only 1/4th of the normal GPU power. If that is the bottleneck in your case, the lag should be gone when doing that.

 

sorry for the long post

[Ben Logan]

Re: Now the game works but with serious lag on both flippers. Its even so bad (1 - 2 seconds) that the flipper gets stuck in the up position or the flipper moves when the ball has passed already.

Sounds like you might be opening a VP9 table with the VPX program.

Welcome to the forum!

Edited by Ben Logan, 03 December 2017 - 09:25 PM.

[sliderpoint]

I would guess you are getting some kind of message when you start the table. What does that message say?


-Mike