12 replies to this topic

[dyopp21]

On a real pin it's quite common to hit directly between two drop targets, knocking them both down at the same time...  Not so in VP.

 

Has anyone else noticed this anomaly in VP?  As many hundreds of games I've played, I don't ever recall hitting two side-by-side drop targets at the same time.  Now, I've ricocheted and knocked down two drop targets with a target down between them many times (especially on Mata Hari).

 

Just wondering why this is the case...  I figured one of the advanced users/table authors among you may be able to shed some light on this. 

Edited by dyopp21, 12 February 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[mukuste]

On Centaur, there's actually a special bonus if you hit two side-by-side drop targets simultaneously. I'm quite sure that I managed to achieve that every now and then. But it's possible that that table used special scripting to achieve that.

[GSGregg]

On PacDude's VP8 table, the O, R, B, and S targets are named sw32, sw31g, sw30g and sw29,respectively. Additionally, each pair has a third switch occupying the gap between the two, named sw31_32 and sw29_30; hitting one of these gives the double-target drop.

 

I don't have the VP9 table.

 

GSG

[dyopp21]

Great info.  I had a feeling it "could" be done.  I'm surprised more table authors haven't written that into their scripts.

[jimmyfingers]

Definitely good information and insight on this nuance. Maybe this is something that could be eventually updated in the code itself. It's interesting that this topic arose as I was just starting to think / feel the same way after some recent work on a Centaur update with fuzzel (I'll have to check the table we're working on for this code and attempt to add it if it doesn't exist).

 

It does seem that without the extra coding that VP does not allow two targets at once (seems to affect all types of targets maybe even any hit event). The appearance of it may have happened at times but most likely was just from close sequencing vs. at the same time. Just like the OP, it had started to dawn on me that I did not really recall seeing this in all my VP playing over the years.

[mukuste]

I think it's less "allowing" two targets at the same time as it is the mathematical reality of the collision detection code. You see, if you have two rectangles next to each other and a circle which is trying to touch both at the same time, then there is only a single configuration where this actually happens, compared to the infinitely many cases where the circle hits only one of them. That said, I wonder if the ROM allows for a small period of time between the two hits to still register as "simultaneously"? Otherwise it would seem that it would be exceedingly rare even in real life.

[dyopp21]

Definitely good information and insight on this nuance. Maybe this is something that could be eventually updated in the code itself. It's interesting that this topic arose as I was just starting to think / feel the same way after some recent work on a Centaur update with fuzzel (I'll have to check the table we're working on for this code and attempt to add it if it doesn't exist).

 

It does seem that without the extra coding that VP does not allow two targets at once (seems to affect all types of targets maybe even any hit event). The appearance of it may have happened at times but most likely was just from close sequencing vs. at the same time. Just like the OP, it had started to dawn on me that I did not really recall seeing this in all my VP playing over the years.

Hey!  I did something POSITIVE!  I'll have to show this to my wife.  Thanks jimmyfingers...

 

Would love if at some point it was correct on the stationary targets on "Firepower."  I've played that real table many many times and it is very common to strike two of those targets at the same time.

[GSGregg]

Would two overlapping triggers (without a third one) be doable?

[StevOz]

I know of a few machines especially earlier SS machines where a target sweep shot was possible and something to aim for. Magic by Stern for instance was one I can recollect performing this shot on often and there where others. Hitting the rubber close to the lowermost drop target would allow the sweep shot to be performed dropping all the targets with one flip from the left flipper. It was not an easy shot to make and required the ball to travel down the left inlane at speed, thus your timing had to be spot on and even then it didn't always work, though it could be done.

 

http://www.ipdb.org/...no=53030&zoom=1

 

Looking at the above picture you can see the wear on the targets caused by this shot.

Edited by StevOz, 12 February 2014 - 01:15 AM.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

On the oldest VP tables before about VP6, drop target double-strikes were permitted all the time. The reason why this changed is because table creators were pretty fed up with how the entire target was a hittable object which could be dropped unrealistically when struck from the sides and back as well. Around this time it became possible to set up a seperate secondary surface placed in front of the target with the right properties while leaving the sides and back exposed, and this was used as the hit zone from then on. So when the ball lands in between two targets, what's generally happening there is the ball contacts the hit surface of one target but the corner of the other, which no longer counts as a hit.

 

When I developed the VP8 version of Meteor ages ago, what I did was implement a facsimile of proper 'sweep' physics for that game. It's more complex than placing a trigger between two drops - early Sterns have very sensitive targets which, when shot from an oblique angle, have enough give to drop before the ball actually bounces off them, so the ball is instead deflected across the front surface, knocking each target down in turn. Certain Sterns incorporate this phenomenon into the game rules - knock a whole bank down in one shot, get a big bonus. It certainly made a huge difference to the play of VP Meteor, but I don't think anyone else has really tried doing the same thing since.

[mukuste]

That's cool! Very solid information. I wonder if the option to have some 'give' couldn't be implemented into VP drop targets...

[dyopp21]

@ealasubhsidhe,

 

Great info.  Now the question becomes, is this even worth approaching and trying to fix?  I'm not one to complain about VP, because I enjoy playing it immensely even with the few quirks that come along with it.

 

I just know that some purists want the experience to be "more human than human" so to speak.

[faralos]

and I am doing just the opposite for some of my wip's

 like in Dogtown (will it ever get finished?) I  made little walls between the bulleyes so

 no one can hit two each time you hit it it will be due to skill not a blind luck sweep

Attached Files

•  drop targets.JPG   89.44KB   1 downloads

Edited by faralos, 13 February 2014 - 06:08 PM.