14 replies to this topic

[loserman76]

Question: On King Pin when it is set to 5 ball play, what determines when the pop bumpers are lit and alternates the lit targets/rollovers? I've watched you tube videos (pretty horrid quality) and I cannot figure this one out. Trying to code up a King Pin table and the 5 ball play behavior stumps me.

 

 

Who knows, maybe I'll get around to releasing the slew of EM's I had made years ago and recently "upgraded" them with a lot of the new techniques in use today...

 

 

Loserman/Jeff

[The Loafer]

Can't answer your question but looking forward to seeing these new releases. Your question seems to indicate this is for a recreation yet this thread is in "pinball maintenance and repair" which I think is for real pinball machines. You may want to pm a mod/Noah to move it to a vp related forum such as "VP help centre".

I would also recommend renaming the thread to something like "script: help needed for VP build", that should get some attention from the vp script gods.

Edited by The Loafer, 08 December 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[faralos]

damn you for getting a Gottlieb!! all their manuals have been pulled off theIPDB

 due to 'copyright infringements' so we can't just go and look it up any more for the Gottliebs

http://www.ipdb.org/...ine.cgi?id=1374

okay after an exhaustive search for anything relating to the instruction cards I did find  this

The rules for Gottlieb King Pin pinball are fairly straight forward - knock down all the drop targets!

The drop targets score 500 points, except for the one lit drop target that scores 5000 ponts

(on 3 balls this happens from game start, on 5 balls this happens after knocking down all drop targets one time).

After knocking down all the drop targets (once for 3 ball, twice for 5 ball),

one light in front of the drop targets will signify that target as "Special" (replay). This light can move,

if the ball hits the center rollover star. On a 3 ball game, the lit drop target turns on and off with the match stepper unit

(on a five ball game this light is always on after knocking down all drop targets two times)

The kickout holes across the top of the playfield and the lower outlanes alternate for 500 or 5000 points.

The inlanes and top side rollovers light for 100 or 500 points (on a 3 ball game they are lit for 500 points from game start,

on a 5 ball game they light after all drop targets are knocked down once). Other than that,

there isn't much to this game other than to knock down all the drop targets, then rinse and repeat.

 

that is verbatim from this site

http://www.pinrepair...gtb/kingpin.htm

 

 

does this help ya' any?

Attached Files

•  kingpin3b.jpg   112.47KB   6 downloads
•  kingpin5b.jpg   126.66KB   3 downloads

Edited by faralos, 08 December 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[loserman76]

Thank you faralos - I did find that particular bit of documentation. But here's where the ruleset is fuzzy. If the machine is set to 5 ball play, the pop bumpers (1000 when lit) go on and off based on what appears to be some particular scoring amount. Not sure if it is based on 100's or 10's or just plain scoring hits. Here's a video that I tried to use (www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdFFQDzBeLg), but 1)it's pretty bad quality, and 2)it doesn't show the score. Too bad papa org doesn't have this on their video list.

 

I was looking at some of the existing copies of this and they don't emulate the pop bumper lighting based on what I saw in the youtube video.

 

I guess maybe when I'm in Vegas at the end of the month, I'll be paying a visit to the pinball museum there and blow a roll or 2 of quarters in this to try and figure it out unless someone has one of these in their possession and can tell what the criteria is for the bumper to light/unlight.

 

Loserman/Jeff

[faralos]

found a vid based on an FP king pin so if it's built in fp why not just use those rules?

I have a big problem trying to read that multicolored crap they call script in fp

 maybe if you can the rules for the table are in it somewhere sorry

 that multicolor stuff is for the birds when trying to decipher anything from it

[loserman76]

That particular FP table is actually where I got a lot of my information from. However, the pop bumpers aren't behaving the same as the real King Pin does in the video link I posted. Hard to tell in the FP table video, but the pop bumpers alternate with every 10 pt hit. On the real machine video they don't. Oh well, like I said I'm going to be in Vegas in 3 weeks so I'll just watch the real table in action to figure it out.

[rumble555]

I want to know about this since I'm working in the hellacopters pinball recreation wich is a restoration of the king pin:

 

http://www.youtube.c...rs pinball&sm=3

 

I watched the King Pin videos and I couldn't find a logical pattern for those lights behaviour.

 

I agree that the fp versions does not work as the real table does in the videos. And It does not seem to switch for each certain score. It does not seem to switch for each x number of times you hit the bumpers. In the videos, you can see that sometimes they switch when the ball hits a slingshot or even when passing by one of the rollthrough lanes. 

 

I've sent a message to Wade Krause (the guy who made the Hellacopters machine) asking about it. i hope he will be able to solve our doubts clearly.

 

By now, until I have more detailed information,  in my hellacopters VP table those lights switches every time the ball hits the slingshots. Although I know it's not the way it should, it's the closer I can get to the real behaviour.

 

I'm looking forward your observations in las vegas in case Wade don't answer our questions.

 

Cheers.

 

PD I don't this is the wrong place for this topic since someone who owns the real machine will know about this better than anybody else.

Edited by rumble555, 09 December 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[faralos]

after watching it for the umpteenth time (wow umpteenth is a real word!)

 I still can't fathom how or when they light up it ain't the points nor the upper lanes

 maybe it is just a random thing and we are going nuts trying to decipher that!

[faralos]

I don't have any clue on how to decipher FP code

but I did find the two spots where the bumpers turn on in the script

don't know if this helps or not

Attached Files

•  king pin bumper state1.JPG   120.3KB   5 downloads
•  king pin bumper state2.JPG   118.53KB   3 downloads

[pinuck]

I'm not sure about the pops turning off for an extended time in the middle of that video (or if that's correct behaviour or not) - but the rest of the time when they're going off for just a short period, is cause the scoring motor is running.

When a Gottlieb EM has the scoring motor running (ie. scoring points that require a chime to be hit more than once / ie. numbers that don't start with a 1) it turns off the pops and often some other lights on the playfield (rollovers etc) until the motor stops and then they come back on. Same with when the ball hits the drain.

[rumble555]

I had response from Wade Krause and he Hellacopters machine was sold to a pinball musseum so he can't check it but he can ask to a person who owns a king pin machine. By now he told me that he would say that the lights alternates each score of 10.  But in the videos I watched it does not seem to be that way.

[loserman76]

Ok, so after having a chance to visit the pinball hall of fame in Vegas I am even more confused regarding the pop bumper lighting behavior. The one in Vegas was always lit except when the score motor was running. ugh. I think Pinuck is right that the behavior in the video I used for reference has the table working in a non-original state.

 

BTW, after I got home I was able to get my hands on a Pin Up schematic (the add-a-ball version of King Pin). Based on what I see with the Pin Up schematic, I will script King Pin to behave similarly with the lights and such.

 

 

-jeff

[rumble555]

Well I asked about it at a pinball machines forum you can see the topics and the answers they gave me here: 

 

http://pinside.com/p...ng-pin-acquired

 

http://pinside.com/p...ing-relay-issue

 

Looks like it switches each score of 100 but it won't switch if the 100's reel is in zero.

 

Cheers.

[faralos]

good luck programming that one in sounds like it would be a challenge

 since every time you score the script would have to look at your scoring

then adjust the bumper lights for that or just make them switch out on a timed basis

like every twenty seconds or so maybe?

[rumble555]

Gi fudes. I have a message from Wade Krause, the guy who made the Hellacopters custom pinball using a King Pin machine. He's helping me with the Hellacoptars VP recreation and I asked him about the lights switch. He hasn't the Hellacopters machine in his hands but he's got a friend who ownes a king pin machine and he was so gentle take a look a it. This is what he said:

 

I finally made it to my friend;s place tonight and we worked on the game and got it running enough to check out the pop bumpers and a few other things. The pop bumpers alternate on and off with anything that scores 100 points, including 500 point shots. There is a pattern though and it is listed below and this is why it looks confusing in the youtube videos.

N=ON  F=OFF

NNFN FNFN FNFF NFNF NFNF  (repeats, like so NNFN FNFN FNFF NFNF NFNF  NNFN FNFN FNFF NFNF NFNF NNFN FNFN FNFF NFNF NFNF)

I noticed that the targets score 100. When you hit them, they light for 1000 and stay lit until you hit 100 or 500, then they alternate with the pop bumpers and follow the same pattern.

L & R drain lanes alternate with the same alternator (100's and 500's) and the upper kickouts do the same but the L kickout is tied to the R (5000 when lit) drain and R kickout to the L (5000 when lit) drain.

 The spot targets do move in a line from R to L one spot at a time. If you hit the lit spot, it moves one step to the L to light the next target, even for specials.

I hope this helps.. Cheers