12 replies to this topic

[jimmyfingers]

FirePower UR/NF VP9.1.x Momentum MOD



Version: 1.1.0.2
Category: VP/VPinMAME 9.x - MOD Tables

Author(s): UncleReamus, Noah Fentz, JimmyFingers (B.M.P.R. MOD)

Description:
Ball Momentum Physics Routine MOD of UncleReamus' and Noah Fentz's Firepower VP9.1.x v1.1.0
-------------------------------------------------------
Update 1.1.0.2:
- Implemented B.M.P.R. Version 1.1
- Adds enhancement for only processing X / lateral momentum when ball is slowing down (big improvement can be observed in realism and ball speed around in / out lanes and flippers)
- Lowered elasticty setting on tops of lane guides

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Ball Momentum Physics Routine (B.M.P.R.) MOD:

First off, a massive thank you to Noah for granting me permission to upload this MOD of his table to allow me to demonstrate the B.M.P.R. system
- To help demontrate and assess the routine there are status lights now on the apron and if you don't like them you can just move them off to the side
- To toggle the routine on and off during game play, use either left or right magna-save button or the "m" key (the lights should stop flashing to confirm when it isn't running)
- The physics have been changed on the table to help the ball appear generally heavier and with lower slope to help the lateral movement and shortcomings from these settings changes compensated by the B.M.P.R.
- Comparing with routine on or off via the toggle will be the best way to see the differences that the routine is adding, all other things being equal, and also confirm / verify the essentially zero performance impact
- NOTE: how the table behaves with the routine disabled is not indicative of Noah's original release and is due instead to the table physics changes to blend with the B.M.P.R. parameters for the overall desired result
- This desktop version non-WS so unless using a 4:3 aspect ratio it will look stretched and overly exaggerate the later ball movement / momentum


- This table has some other MODs / routines as I personalized it for some other things I've been developing (not related to the B.M.P.R.) which is another big reason why Noah's gesture was so huge
- One other main MOD to note is that it has a routine for soft flipper taps; These are possible when you are holding the flipper already up and very quickly release and press the button again (flipper passes are possible)
- I also created a new enhanced ball rolling sound(s) routine that is based on rascals original concept
- There is also a zbounce routine for some hops off the center targets like what seems to happen a lot on the real table
- The plunger style has been changed to alpha ramps with the update that koadic had recently posted about regarding simultaneous digital analog abilities (I needed that as I have a analog motion detector but a digital plunger)


Other Thanks go out to PinballKen and Steely as it is there ball collision / tracking script that this Ball Momentum Physics Routine depends on to function (I am sitll blown away every time I look over the B2B coding)
Thanks to the other authors who are showing an interest in incorporating it into their tables and some enthusiasm over the demonstration and it's potential


-The general topic about this routine can be found here: http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=19388&st=0
- Any specific items to how it is demonstrated in this table should be raised / addressed in the support topic

View File

Submitted by jimmyfingers, on May 17 2012, 12:48 AM

Edited by jimmyfingers, 01 June 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[Ezepov]

Plays great! Thanks.

[bolt]

Great one, thanks.

[Shooby Doo]

Thanks a for this jimmyfingers, I like this a lot. I can really tell a difference around the flippers... feels "right".

- This desktop version non-WS so unless using a 4:3 aspect ratio it will look stretched and overly exaggerate the later ball movement / momentum

There is a WS backdrop included and it's angle independent. I think I changed my x-scale to 87 and it seemed to fit the WS backdrop.

[rob046]

I would really like to see this code in action with maybe a 6 slope & a little less bounce on the rubbers. The flippers seem to work pretty well, but I'm having some trouble with that center shot & also can't seem to do anything with the backhand. Also things like the metal inlanes probably shouldn't have such high elasticity on them, the inlanes currently have bounce just as if they were rubber. Anyhow I'd definitely like to see this system once it gets a little more refined & see it demo'd on some other types of tables as well.

I went ahead & tried adding some of settings/changes I would to a normal table, but it didn't seem to work out that well, probably due to the reasons already given above. Also the ball is jumping off the standups a little too often, I think. This can happen in real life, but this is why pinball makers & now home owners started putting that weather stripping in behind the targets, so that they would not have this problem. That is what I do too & it definitely helps to pretty much get rid of the jumping completely on some tables or at least make it pretty rare.

Edited by rob046, 18 May 2012 - 01:57 AM.

[jimmyfingers]

I would really like to see this code in action with maybe a 6 slope & a little less bounce on the rubbers. The flippers seem to work pretty well, but I'm having some trouble with that center shot & also can't seem to do anything with the backhand. Also things like the metal inlanes probably shouldn't have such high elasticity on them, the inlanes currently have bounce just as if they were rubber. Anyhow I'd definitely like to see this system once it gets a little more refined & see it demo'd on some other types of tables as well.

I went ahead & tried adding some of settings/changes I would to a normal table, but it didn't seem to work out that well, probably due to the reasons already given above. Also the ball is jumping off the standups a little too often, I think. This can happen in real life, but this is why pinball makers & now home owners started putting that weather stripping in behind the targets, so that they would not have this problem. That is what I do too & it definitely helps to pretty much get rid of the jumping completely on some tables or at least make it pretty rare.

The routine won't really work well with a 6 slope and you can't really equate the slope setting when it's enabled to what it would be in real life or when the routine is disabled as it's faking some gravity in order to keep the slope lower so that more lateral travel can occur. The backhand may be giving you some trouble because the table has an additional routine I added to mimic a weeker flipper shot on a very quick / momentary flipper taps (from when the flipper is already pressed). The metal inlanes may be a bit bouncy as I turned down the slope for the latest version that was ultimately uploaded to try and slow it down a bit more after corresponding with Noah and re-assessing. So, maybe dropping them a tad may be better. I would not say they are bouncing just like rubber though and depending on the metal, I've seen some pretty good metal rail outlane bounces on real tables.

As far as it getting refined, some other tables would help as people would start to see some slightly different settings and implementations and possibly modify better for themselves or tables they make. However, part of it getting refined is up to you and the community as I intentionally spent extra effort and time on the routine to create very easy to find and adjust global parameters with some help in the internal documentation. Play with those settings and see if you get something more you like. Part of the effort in the routine was to keep it open like that for more easy preferences and to provide some more elements that could be tweaked along with the regular physics to help people set it even closer to how they'd like to see it play.

The jumping happening like it does in real life was exactly the reason I created that routine (zbounce) to help mimic what several of the real FirePower tables seem to do, without the counter-measures you state. Actually Rob, you out of all people I thought would appreciate the effort to more closely match some real life aspects even if they ultimately were slightly undesirable ones. If you don't like how much it happens, look up the routine in the tables, read the internal documenation, and change to your liking (again it has parameters - one exactly for the threshold for the effect - and the effort to document somewhat was so people can find and change if they want - especially people who have experience authoring).

I have to say, I'm kinda disappointed by your review as I feel it most definitely adds an improvement to the realism and "feel" of a VP table and after reading and concurring with one of your recent posts about trying to make VP tables as close to their real life counter-part, I thought a step forward like this would get a little more encouragement from you in particular with what it obviously is adding vs. all the more minor things you've raised. Oh well, can't please everyone. Everybody's input is still appreciated and to be considered, but I think there's always room to describe the good with the "bad".

[jimmyfingers]

Updated to 1.1.0.2:
- Implemented B.M.P.R. Version 1.1
- Adds enhancement for only processing X / lateral momentum when ball is slowing down (big improvement can be observed in realism and ball speed around in / out lanes and flippers)
- Lowered elasticty setting on tops of lane guides
-------------------------------------------------------

This update also seems to help the center shots be made easier / more frequently (likely some X augmenting was being applied leaving the flippers and throwing it off slightly - a nice suprise to see this bonus as a result of the general changes from the enhancement). Also, if you want to hear when the enhancement is now active (kinda interesting to see the rather few but heavy spots on the table where the ball actually speeds up on an X axis), then locate and uncomment the line in the momentum script area that says "'Playsound "Collide5"

[Arcade4]

Updated to 1.1.0.2:
- Implemented B.M.P.R. Version 1.1
- Adds enhancement for only processing X / lateral momentum when ball is slowing down (big improvement can be observed in realism and ball speed around in / out lanes and flippers)
- Lowered elasticty setting on tops of lane guides
-------------------------------------------------------

This update also seems to help the center shots be made easier / more frequently (likely some X augmenting was being applied leaving the flippers and throwing it off slightly - a nice suprise to see this bonus as a result of the general changes from the enhancement). Also, if you want to hear when the enhancement is now active (kinda interesting to see the rather few but heavy spots on the table where the ball actually speeds up on an X axis), then locate and uncomment the line in the momentum script area that says "'Playsound "Collide5"

Looking forward to trying it out.

[bolt]

Thank you for the new update.

[JAM0]

Jimmy -- great new contribution to the evolution of VP! Just spent some time with this and really enjoyed myself! My first impression is that something very special is going on. There is an element of "real" that is new. Watching the ball bounce around was in itself pleasing as it appeared more real with more subtleties in the action. I didn't do any head to head comparisons, but what I see I like!

It took me a little while to get used to the "double action" flippers, but when I did, these too provided a more detailed flipper experience, increasing the pleasure of the overall experience. Yeah, it is not perfect, but I definitely think you've got something valuable here in both the physics and the flippers

[rob046]

The routine won't really work well with a 6 slope and you can't really equate the slope setting when it's enabled to what it would be in real life or when the routine is disabled as it's faking some gravity in order to keep the slope lower so that more lateral travel can occur. The backhand may be giving you some trouble because the table has an additional routine I added to mimic a weeker flipper shot on a very quick / momentary flipper taps (from when the flipper is already pressed). The metal inlanes may be a bit bouncy as I turned down the slope for the latest version that was ultimately uploaded to try and slow it down a bit more after corresponding with Noah and re-assessing. So, maybe dropping them a tad may be better. I would not say they are bouncing just like rubber though and depending on the metal, I've seen some pretty good metal rail outlane bounces on real tables.

As far as it getting refined, some other tables would help as people would start to see some slightly different settings and implementations and possibly modify better for themselves or tables they make. However, part of it getting refined is up to you and the community as I intentionally spent extra effort and time on the routine to create very easy to find and adjust global parameters with some help in the internal documentation. Play with those settings and see if you get something more you like. Part of the effort in the routine was to keep it open like that for more easy preferences and to provide some more elements that could be tweaked along with the regular physics to help people set it even closer to how they'd like to see it play.

The jumping happening like it does in real life was exactly the reason I created that routine (zbounce) to help mimic what several of the real FirePower tables seem to do, without the counter-measures you state. Actually Rob, you out of all people I thought would appreciate the effort to more closely match some real life aspects even if they ultimately were slightly undesirable ones. If you don't like how much it happens, look up the routine in the tables, read the internal documenation, and change to your liking (again it has parameters - one exactly for the threshold for the effect - and the effort to document somewhat was so people can find and change if they want - especially people who have experience authoring).

I have to say, I'm kinda disappointed by your review as I feel it most definitely adds an improvement to the realism and "feel" of a VP table and after reading and concurring with one of your recent posts about trying to make VP tables as close to their real life counter-part, I thought a step forward like this would get a little more encouragement from you in particular with what it obviously is adding vs. all the more minor things you've raised. Oh well, can't please everyone. Everybody's input is still appreciated and to be considered, but I think there's always room to describe the good with the "bad".

That was more of a first impressions post & maybe I was too eager to see how much things could be tweaked before spending enough time with the defaults, but I'll be honest 1 thing that was a pretty big turn off for me was how the ball bounced off that metal like rubber & a couple of the flipper issues I had... & this might of taken my focus away from the more important thing with this system. I can see how my post might not of come across like I intended.

I'm glad somebody is taking time with this sort of thing, I'm all for it. & I definitely think there is much more good than bad happening here, though myself (& many others I'm sure) have a tendency to talk more about what could be better. Personality flaw I guess. Regardless I will still be interested in this & trying out whatever you come up with & might even want to use it myself soon.
& I'm not sure if I posted about it or not but I was pretty impressed by Mata Hari. I think a table like that does feel more natural with some of these settings & the slow slope.

Anyhow I think my comments should of been worded more like questions. Though any feedback I am giving just know that it is meant to go toward helping out not really to criticize. If I wasn't intrigued or impressed by this whole idea I simply wouldn't post at all about it. I really do want to see where this goes & sure I hope that it can improve the quality of pinball more than a little around here because that is all I ever really want to see in this hobby. I will try this latest update when I get a chance, it sounds like things are already improved, which is the important thing. Either way you are doing something with this sytem I sure as hell don't have the skills to do, so keep at it.

[jimmyfingers]

Thanks Rob. I totally appreciate your post and hear what you're saying with the extra insight you provided.

I think you'll see and like the side benefit to the main improvement of this latest update. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the changes in this table update (to B.M.P.R. v1.1), to only process ball lateral / X momentum when slowing down, have also seemed to have fixed the difficulty in getting a shot straight up and through the gap in the middle target area. I remember you mentioning this in your feedback and looking at a couple videos of game play I could indeed see that this shot / vector happened more in real life than it seemed to be in the previous MOD version. Within the first couple minutes of testing this and the FS version (1.1.0.2) I got that shot several times

[cooney]

Thanks Rob. I totally appreciate your post and hear what you're saying with the extra insight you provided.

I think you'll see and like the side benefit to the main improvement of this latest update. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the changes in this table update (to B.M.P.R. v1.1), to only process ball lateral / X momentum when slowing down, have also seemed to have fixed the difficulty in getting a shot straight up and through the gap in the middle target area. I remember you mentioning this in your feedback and looking at a couple videos of game play I could indeed see that this shot / vector happened more in real life than it seemed to be in the previous MOD version. Within the first couple minutes of testing this and the FS version (1.1.0.2) I got that shot several times

Very nice! I forgot I was playing this on a computer and not a real machine for a while. Gonna try Mata Hari now. Thanks for the effort. Looking forward to more!