49 replies to this topic

[rascal]

The switch wiring on the real United Chief is different, less switches I believe, and the lane is narrower in real life. but it could be worked around with the Strike Master switches via scripting. I would say the older 60's bowlers are similar to the Chief. The EM bowlers will have to be completely scripted, because there is no rom to tie into, and reels and numeric display will have to made, unlike DMDs. I only think there are two DMD bowlers, Strike Master and League Champ.

 

You can see the switch differences in the attached images.

Attached Files

•  switch layout changes.png   1.23MB   1 downloads
•  strikemasterswitchlayout.png   185.16KB   1 downloads

Edited by rascal, 19 April 2022 - 03:38 PM.

[rascal]

I wonder if 3' of this under the hood would cast enough light.

Custom Pure White LED Neon Flex Rope Light Kit 120V - Novelty Lights

[rascal]

I made a version better fitted to jimmay3's project. It is the backglass and DMD only with its lights and flashers. I did put temp lights along the bottom so he can link to them and then just move them off the backglass to a place where they are not seen. I have a VP10.71 and a VP10.6 version.

 

Here is a video.

[jimmay3]

Rascal has done some great work on the new VPX versions; this was in an effort to get a full BG screen...

 

 

 

Unfortunately I am currently unable to take advantage of these, every time I open them the video on my pc seems to go to sleep and never recovers, windows crashes, need to hold power button down to recover, we tried both VP10.6.2-->10.7.2, no luck...

 

 

 

These tables on a hybrid setup with DOF for the pins/lights is very intensive on input speed. Within a fraction of a second, VP must be able to read the input switches, pass to the rom/dmd, score and tell DOF to drop the correct pins via KeyWiz, LedWiz and Relay board and then reset.  For some reason his older VP9 tables appear to outperform the VPX ones, never had VP9 mess up, but VPX (3d Hand versions) have on occasion, seems when puck is shot very fast.

 

 

 

Not sure if VPX is just too much or VP9 is just better streamlined for what we're trying to accomplish.  Need high input/output vs high speed GPU/graphics.

I wonder if 3' of this under the hood would cast enough light.

Custom Pure White LED Neon Flex Rope Light Kit 120V - Novelty Lights

 

Never thought of that, I couldn’t find any LED upgrades for the 15" florescent tubes, so still have the old tubes.

 

The originals are a T8 x 15" F14W, let me know if anyone knows of a pop in LED replacement, or next time I may put the strip in.

 

UPDATE - I have located an LED replacement that will eliminate the starter and ballast - https://www.amazon.c...F9G3408VZ&psc=1

Edited by jimmay3, 30 November 2022 - 05:41 AM.

[wiesshund]

 

Rascal has done some great work on the new VPX versions; this was in an effort to get a full BG screen...

 

 

 

Unfortunately I am currently unable to take advantage of these, every time I open them the video on my pc seems to go to sleep and never recovers, windows crashes, need to hold power button down to recover, we tried both VP10.6.2-->10.7.2, no luck...

 

 

 

These tables on a hybrid setup with DOF for the pins/lights is very intensive on input speed. Within a fraction of a second, VP must be able to read the input switches, pass to the rom/dmd, score and tell DOF to drop the correct pins via KeyWiz, LedWiz and Relay board and then reset.  For some reason his older VP9 tables appear to outperform the VPX ones, never had VP9 mess up, but VPX (3d Hand versions) have on occasion, seems when puck is shot very fast.

 

 

 

Not sure if VPX is just too much or VP9 is just better streamlined for what we're trying to accomplish.  Need high input/output vs high speed GPU/graphics.

 

 

For what you are doing?
VPX is possibly of no advantage at all
You literally care nothing at all about what is drawing on the screen or how nice it can look etc.

All you literally care about is the communications
So no real reason here not to run this on VP9 probably.

Also, Rascal possibly has more interactive objects on the B2S than you want going on
You want like nearly none, and maybe none at all even as you have a DMD already that tells you everything.

If the B2S does not have interactive things going on, then that lessens the load to as minimal as you can make it.
You could tweak the B2S settings for that backglass, but i am not sure how much mileage that will get you.

 

Oh
FYI

T8 LED tubes

Amazon.com : 3ft t8 led

[jimmay3]

Also, Rascal possibly has more interactive objects on the B2S than you want going on

You want like nearly none, and maybe none at all even as you have a DMD already that tells you everything.

If the B2S does not have interactive things going on, then that lessens the load to as minimal as you can make it.
You could tweak the B2S settings for that backglass, but i am not sure how much mileage that will get you.

 

Oh
FYI

T8 LED tubes

Amazon.com : 3ft t8 led

 

 

Rascal's new VPX tables uses no B2S, it's basically a backglass with no playfield in a table file, so no B2S file is used, unless you want 2 backglasses on top of each other on a single screen.

 

You may be confusing the other option that was kicked around; a blank table with only a B2S file, but this solution has key input speed and focus issues.

 

FYI - Looking for 15" T8 LED Tubes, not 3'?

[wiesshund]

15" ones exist too as i bought some for the stove

Older stove with top and bottom ovens and big frosted glass plate in the back, that they stuff full of 15" florescent tubes

and i got really fed up with replacing the starters as they dont make good replacements anymore, and the LED tubes dont need the starter

 

I think i got them at lowes or home depot

 

And someone. i thought it was Rascal, just put up a B2S for your machine
and it looks nice, but it has a lot of lights in it
Basically has the mechanical lamp board below the screen duplicated in it.

 

And yea, you could do that, a VPX table with nothing on it, playfield using backglass image, no b2s file at all
Let it run in exclusive fullscreen mode since VPX tends to run more efficiently that way even when it is doing nothing visually at all, you do not need to position a DMD on top of it

 

(Yea you are saying what the hell, how am i supposed to then see the DMD you moron)

 

Flasher.

Display the DMD on a flasher, pretty positive rascal is already well aware of how to do that

[jimmay3]

Looking for some pdf's of the below manuals to validate input/outputs, will mark them off if anyone sends me them, thanks:

Topaz, United/Williams, 1978
Pompeii, United/Williams, 1978
Aristocrat, United/Williams, 1979
Taurus, United/Williams, 1979
King Tut, United/Williams, 1979
Omni, United/Williams, 1980
Big Strike, United/Williams, 1983
Triple Strike, United/Williams, 1983
Strike Zone, Williams, 1984
Alley Cats, Williams, 1985
Tic Tac Strike, Williams, 1986
Gold Mine, Williams, 1987
Top Dawg, Williams, 1987
Shuffle Inn, Williams, 1989
Strike Master, Williams, 1991
League Champ, Williams, 1996

Edited by jimmay3, 23 April 2022 - 06:55 AM.

[jimmay3]

After a few weeks lost on trying to figure out which way to go with VP9/VPX and full table or just a B2S backglass, the only solution that consistently worked on a mid-level PC was using the original Rascal/Wildman VP9 table files modified with updated script to allow for authentic play with setup options for playfield switching, disabling of pin automatization and pin reset motor sounds, and an option to use the PBX Instruction button for adding coins (like a free play).  This setup seems to allow a slimmer Visual Pinball (VP9) program to provide the fastest and most consistent inputs and outputs to ensure quality game play.

 

Final Test 6 Video of full startup, frontend menu, multiple game play, testing, actual game rom diagnostics, pin stowage and windows shutdown:

 

https://youtu.be/UjBKYjCZV1g

 

 

Modified/Tested games to date: Strike Master (Williams 1991), Top Dawg (Williams 1988), Gold Mine (Williams 1987) and Alley Cats (Williams 1985); all table files are 2.0 (VP9.92) Hybrid Tested with using VP9.92 Modified on 11/1/2018 (Rascal and Wildman) and on 4/23/2022 (JimMay3).

[wiesshund]

being that you have absolutely no use for pretty visuals and 3d stuff, just a nice 2d backglass image
VP9 is not actually a bad way to go, VPX is probably of 0 advantage in this specific situation, you just need it to process script fast and talk to vpinmame and ODF via B2S quickly
and VP9 does that just fine while happily drawing a backglass for a playfield with nothing on it.

 

You dont need physics or 3d objects or advanced lighting and so forth.

 

Now, for your next challenge
SKEEBALL!

 

and it has to spit out tickets

[rascal]

Yeah, I guess you have to run B2S in order to use DOF. If you get the United Chief hybrid you can see how I manually sent commands to ledwiz without B2S and DOF (with the help of DeeGor). But then everything would have to be scripted. It would be nice if DOF was built into vpinmame instead, then the whole backglass could be made in VP9.

 

I'm linking this, I hope it stays linked. It would be here too, but there is no place for it here.

Chief Shuffle Alley Bowler (United) (1953) (Rascal) (1.0) (FS) (Dedicated shuffle cab with ledwiz devices) - Hybrid Files - Virtual Pinball Universe (vpuniverse.com)

 

 

Edited by rascal, 27 April 2022 - 01:16 PM.

[wiesshund]

 It would be nice if DOF was built into vpinmame instead, then the whole backglass could be made in VP9.

 

Well, technically it is i guess you could say, but only visual pinball and b2s server are made to read it directly

 

In theory, you could run the whole thing just with VP9 and nothing else, but i do not know that the speed would be good enough?

 

vp9 knows if the rom fires a solenoid or turns on a lamp etc, all the things DOF does
you would have to have VP9 send serial commands directly to your DOF hardware.
I am sure that is fully possible, but i would not know where to begin.

 

Once upon a time, a long time ago, we used to have MAME send commands out the parallel port and we used that to do things like
turn on the arcade CRT tube, once a non destructive resolution and scan rate was being sent (so as to not damage the CRT)
also to turn on and off coin slot and button lamps.

 

Not exactly the same but.
Your DOF hardware is not a parallel port though, and i would not remotely have an idea of what commands to send the hardware nor how to direct them
but maybe someone that knows more than i do could look into it, i just do not know if the speed would be good enough?
VBS is not exactly the fastest thing in the world.

[jimmay3]

All was good till PBX added, issues with an overlapping input key that they must have moved during a rename of a few commands is all I can figue.

 

I reserved all the PBX keys during mapping, but appears at one point they moved/renamed Playfield Screenshot (S) to Grab Video (V).  I was using V for the V Rollover on Pin-9, so when a table was run from PBX menu and I hit the 9-Pin, the Grab Video was taking place and when video was ready the game would exit and dump you to the PBX menu.

 

Gunna have to do a little remapping on inputs and KeyWiz to cleanup issue and reassigned a few PBX command to some off function keys F7/F8/F9...  Sucks, was 5 tables into it before I noticed an issue, must have been during a recent update.

[rascal]

All was good till PBX added, issues with an overlapping input key that they must have moved during a rename of a few commands is all I can figue.

 

I reserved all the PBX keys during mapping, but appears at one point they moved/renamed Playfield Screenshot (S) to Grab Video (V).  I was using V for the V Rollover on Pin-9, so when a table was run from PBX menu and I hit the 9-Pin, the Grab Video was taking place and when video was ready the game would exit and dump you to the PBX menu.

 

Gunna have to do a little remapping on inputs and KeyWiz to cleanup issue and reassigned a few PBX command to some off function keys F7/F8/F9...  Sucks, was 5 tables into it before I noticed an issue, must have been during a recent update.

Can't you map the keys in PBX? I thought you could.

[jimmay3]

Could, but have another small issue with Alt key combinations, so might as well do it right and get some of the roll over switch back to normal letters too, one last redo...

 

Update - Remmaped PBX keys (above key chart), updated script on Strike Master and reburned KeyWiz and all testing good, need to finish up other 4 tables and that should be good for now.  Need to get on to the cosmetics and button up the TV in the top box...

Edited by jimmay3, 29 April 2022 - 07:38 AM.

[jimmay3]

PBX and Tables all remapped, so I go to reburn the KeyWiz Max EEPROM with the key swaps and it says fail. Same issue I had the first time I did it, found out KeyWiz Max don't like some PC's chipsets, especially some usb 3.0 ports. First time I plugged it into a newer laptop and all was resolved. Running their proprietary config tool with Administrator rights, in the same laptop and same port, still no joy? Tried every port in the house, same issue. I know the KeyWiz has limited burns, like 100k, but have only done it about 3 times in testing. Anybody have any more info or workarounds?

[wiesshund]

You have an old low speed USB hub?
like one of those cheap slow little laptop ones?

Maybe that might slow things down enough to make it happy?

 

Dunno, just an idea

[jimmay3]

Mfg said last time, they are finicky on fast v3 usb, prefer the slower port. But certain chipset act up too.

Why was it good last time on same laptop and port? 3 occasions I plugged it in and programed it fine in that laptop, month later and tried to apply the above changes and now problem appears unresolvable. Was hoping someone know of some common issue or workaround...

Update 1 - Email sent to mfg, will have to wait... Thing is great, till you have to program it...

 

Update 2 - Plugged back into game PC and it just worked, so don't know, don't care, should never have to do again...  Runs great, but finicky to program...

Edited by jimmay3, 30 April 2022 - 07:51 AM.

[jimmay3]

System back up, just had to tweak the pin stow settings a little faster, can not update the info at (thread lock), just want to keep a record of it:

 

https://forums.gamee...command-solved/

 

New Settings:

 

 

PBX STARTUP - LIGHTS TEST

DirectOutputTest.exe 1 * 100 sleep .3 * 150 sleep .3 * 200 sleep .3 * 255 sleep 3

 

PBX EXIT - PINS UP/STOWED (BY ROWS)

DirectOutputTest.exe 2 1-3 255 sleep .25 1-3 0 9-11 255 sleep .25 9-11 0 17-19 255 25 255 sleep .25 17-19 0 25 0

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Input/Output/KeyWiz charts on page 1 all updated.

 

Going to put some time on the system and update to a SSD, then start cosmetics and get some good final pics up...

 

Thanks for the support from many across a few sites...

Edited by jimmay3, 30 April 2022 - 08:00 AM.

[jimmay3]

Got 7 tables fully converted and fully tested for authentic play. Ran into a few QA issues with the original table scripts that have seemed to roll over thru the years, all cleaned up.

Ran into issues with Williams System 6 games. I read on a pin repair site that the shuffle and pin factory guys didn't agree/use the same base inputs for start, coins, high score reset, slam, ect; thus the emulator does not fire the correct inputs, made a special s6-shuffle-alley-mod.vbs to workaround for now. See latest input chart, when I repost the updated ones (see earlier posts).

Also, read Williams System 6 was an upgrade to sys 3 boards, but functions same as System 3, thus when I updated a sys3 table, had to use the same s6 modified vbs.

Still looking. For any of the above listed shuffle manuals, mainly a Top Dawg cause the start button lamp is still not working. I've scrubbed that rom, can't find an output for it, unless they used a flasher or something, that game I think used nearly every output and they possibly ran out. Anyone with a Top Dawg Lamp matrix, please fwd or post.

Probably take a little break from setting up tables, going to do the ssd upgrade with a clean Win10 install then do some cosmetics.

Will post the updated input/output ref charts soon.

Many thanks to Rascal, very supportive on the PMs.

Edited by jimmay3, 05 May 2022 - 03:03 AM.