299 replies to this topic

[bent98]

You can snag some pics here. They are hi res. I think Player one was supposed to work on it as he did the redraw.

http://christopherhu...album391?page=3

[mfuegemann]

Hello,

I am following this post for a while now. As for the last months there was almost no progress, I decided to create a new VP9-FS version based on Nealtrons 4:3 table (VP8 2.03).
I reworked the graphics, although it is quite hard to find good pictures of this table (bent98, I will check the pictures, You linked in - thank You). Some minor adjustments to the playfield layout were made to meet the original table layout.
Version 0.9 is ready now. Unfortunately I am not able to contact Nealtron to ask for his permission to release a MOD, based on his table.

Because of this, I want to ask for Your opinion: should I release (with due credits to Nealtron, of course) or not?

Regards
Michael

Edited by mfuegemann, 05 October 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[koadic]

Unfortunately, if it is a Mod, I think you are gonna need to get permission before uploading it, regardless of trying to contact Nealtron and being unable to.

That being said, it is a shame that a table with updated graphics hasn't been released in the last 2 1/2 years. I was even thinking of redoing it (with some other guys) all from scratch so it could be uploaded without issue, and I guess we still might after we finish the Hurricane and Cosmic Gunfight tables we are working on, unless somebody else has some concrete plans to do so. Hopefully we can release Hurricane by the end of the month, and Cosmic Gunfight shortly afterwards, and start working on it.

[bent98]

that would be sweet

[Slydog43]

wow great news as I want to play this table on my cab as I was thinking of buying the real table, but don't have that much experience with it.

[Herweh]

Would be wonderful

[fattdirk]

Release it. Isn't there a rule that if someone is idle for a certain period of time that you do not need their permission for a MOD?

[rob046]

Release it. Isn't there a rule that if someone is idle for a certain period of time that you do not need their permission for a MOD?

Why are you with 12 posts to tell somebody its OK to release something? Moreover, I think this rule might of been changed. But I'm just saying, don't tell somebody to release something when you aren't even sure of the rules. I understand your intentions, but you don't want somebody to get into issues of modding without permission, that can get messy & stir things up in the community.

[TheMcD]

Release it. Isn't there a rule that if someone is idle for a certain period of time that you do not need their permission for a MOD?

No, there isn't. As a matter of fact, that's the exact reason why he should NOT release it, because somebody on staff is just going to slap him for releasing an unauthorized mod. No permission, no release, PERIOD. Either he remakes the table entirely or he won't be allowed to release it without getting permission.

[thewool]

As much as I would also like to play this table, you can't release the mod without the author's permission. This is from the board rules:

The posting of MOD WIP's and/or uploading mods is strictly forbidden without the consent from the original author ... period, as well as link to sites containing unauthorized MODs. If an author is inactive and/or unreachable not withstanding.

http://www.vpforums....tion=boardrules

Edited by thewool, 05 October 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[mfuegemann]

Hello,

thank You for Your contributions. Just the first post by koadic confirmed my thoughts: no explicit permission, no release. TheMcD and thewool, thank You for referring to the board rules, You are right.
I will try to get the approval or create the table from scratch. Learning the graphics part was possible, so the rest will be too.

Regards
Michael

[T-800]

I guess the real question that most of us members are pondering is whether or not the existing rules/regulations need to be adjusted. It seems unfair/unrealistic to keep people from releasing great tables from unresponsive authors for what ever reasons. I'd be interested to see the results of a poll discussing this where the only eligible voters are those that have released tables.

Worst case, is it ok for individuals who mod another author's work to post a link to a different hosting site (i.e. mediafire)? This would allow the fidelity of their original table to be maintained on this site while keeping the download section from being clogged with redundant table mods.

Just my $0.02

[TheMcD]

I guess the real question that most of us members are pondering is whether or not the existing rules/regulations need to be adjusted. It seems unfair/unrealistic to keep people from releasing great tables from unresponsive authors for what ever reasons. I'd be interested to see the results of a poll discussing this where the only eligible voters are those that have released tables.

Worst case, is it ok for individuals who mod another author's work to post a link to a different hosting site (i.e. mediafire)? This would allow the fidelity of their original table to be maintained on this site while keeping the download section from being clogged with redundant table mods.

Just my $0.02

Also forbidden - refer to the rules: "The [...] uploading [of] mods is strictly forbidden without the consent from the original author ... period, as well as link[ing] to sites containing unauthorized MODs."

Honestly, we've gone over the permission deal MULTIPLE times over the years, and the last consensus was "no permission, no mods, period". Would you say it's OK to release mods of tables made by authors that have since died? For all intents and purposes, "unresponsive" could just as well mean "dead", since you have no way of finding out.

[hmueck]

Honestly, we've gone over the permission deal MULTIPLE times over the years, and the last consensus was "no permission, no mods, period".

I know this has been discussed a gazillion times. But it will come up again and again. And i think for good reason. The way we handle copyright and working together on projects changes over the years.

I think it's clear that authors cannot claim a copyright on their VPM tables. All the pictures, the sounds and the placements of the table elements (ramps/posts/...) have been pirated from real tables without acquiring a license for that. So it just comes down to social behaviour in a group that decides what is okay and what is not okay.

But why shouldn't the group change it's mind and decide that tables are now maintained by the group, not by individuals? Active group members could be selected to maintain the current build of a table and everybody can participate in making the table better. The maintainer collects the changes and releases the updates. So there's one build for each table. When the maintainer is no longer active, others can claim to become the maintainer. The first maintainer could be the first author.
Similar how MAME or open-source software is created. I would like that.
Yes, there would be forks by idiots who want their names written all over everything because they think that way they are "cool". So what. The others enjoy the best tables that have been updated by more authors then ever before.

Would you say it's OK to release mods of tables made by authors that have since died? For all intents and purposes, "unresponsive" could just as well mean "dead", since you have no way of finding out.

Of course that's okay. Would you say nobody is allowed to create a cover of a Michael Jackson song because he's dead? Nobody is allowed to interpret Bach, Wagner, Mozart? No more re-printing, re-translating, updating to modern language of the bible?

[Aaron James]

At the end of the day...there is just a TON of people who are in love with Junkyard pinball machine...and are trying to come up with ingenious/creative ways to, one day, add it to their cabinet.
(I know I sure do...)

[ICPjuggla]

At the end of the day...there is just a TON of people who are in love with Junkyard pinball machine...and are trying to come up with ingenious/creative ways to, one day, add it to their cabinet.
(I know I sure do...)

That being said, it is a shame that a table with updated graphics hasn't been released in the last 2 1/2 years. I was even thinking of redoing it (with some other guys) all from scratch so it could be uploaded without issue, and I guess we still might after we finish the Hurricane and Cosmic Gunfight tables we are working on, unless somebody else has some concrete plans to do so. Hopefully we can release Hurricane by the end of the month, and Cosmic Gunfight shortly afterwards, and start working on it.

you just might get your wish. take a look at Koadic's comment, it might be next on our list!! :-)

Edited by ICPjuggla, 05 October 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[TheMcD]

I know this has been discussed a gazillion times. But it will come up again and again. And i think for good reason. The way we handle copyright and working together on projects changes over the years.

I think it's clear that authors cannot claim a copyright on their VPM tables. All the pictures, the sounds and the placements of the table elements (ramps/posts/...) have been pirated from real tables without acquiring a license for that. So it just comes down to social behaviour in a group that decides what is okay and what is not okay.

But why shouldn't the group change it's mind and decide that tables are now maintained by the group, not by individuals? Active group members could be selected to maintain the current build of a table and everybody can participate in making the table better. The maintainer collects the changes and releases the updates. So there's one build for each table. When the maintainer is no longer active, others can claim to become the maintainer. The first maintainer could be the first author.
Similar how MAME or open-source software is created. I would like that.
Yes, there would be forks by idiots who want their names written all over everything because they think that way they are "cool". So what. The others enjoy the best tables that have been updated by more authors then ever before.

Why shouldn't the group maintain the tables? Simple - the subjectivity of what makes a "better" table prevents us from judging exactly what is for the better. We've had fallouts over flipper settings, general physics settings and God knows what else, and it's very possible the author will vehemently object to changes the community might think are good, and will simply refrain from making their tables available here and will take their ball and go home because they feel their vision of a good table is being spat on. And with the very small number of actual "authors" in this community, I would prefer it if we protect them, rather than risking pissing them off.

To me, there's a reason we've gone over this topic a large number of times and yet stayed the course.

Of course that's okay. Would you say nobody is allowed to create a cover of a Michael Jackson song because he's dead? Nobody is allowed to interpret Bach, Wagner, Mozart? No more re-printing, re-translating, updating to modern language of the bible?

Apples and oranges. In the case of MJ, somebody else still holds the rights and that person or group is responsible for enforcing whatever restrictions and rights they have. Here, we (the staff) have secondary enforcement capabilities when the original author is not available, and we deny every distribution of modified tables out of respect for the author. Not sure how long you've been a member of this community, but we've had some extreme forum wars over people modifying tables without permission (one of the more notorious ones being the Nicky Special case), which led to this extreme stance - in order to prevent those forum-tearing arguments from happening again. In the case of the classical music, you're talking about a timespan of over 200 years, something that isn't fitting for this discussion, considering the youth of this community. And with the Bible, it's not only an even larger timespan, but it's literally impossible to even define the original authors.

I believe this might come down to a POV difference. You're a regular member, I'm a moderator. You might care much less about the potential fallout these ideas cause than I do, but I have to deal with this, potentially mend burned bridges and somehow try to keep the contributing members from just disappearing. And if it backfires, it all falls back on poor handling on the staff member's part, rather than looking for the problems at the source, and I'll be taking all the heat. Because of that, I'm very much in favor of keeping the original author's "rights" (for lack of a better term) strong.

[FDSystems]

From all what I have witnessed during these years ( since 2006), I'm 100% in favor of a strict aplication of the status quo :
Not authorized, not modded !



Authorized comes from "author". Let's respect them.

My 2 cents.

[mfuegemann]

I think TheMcD and FDSystems are totally right. A forum or online community is in need of very strict rules. I too witnessed some minor discussions to leave topic and become war. For this I will stick to the "old way". On the other hand I think, everyone who uploads content should be aware of the possibility that someone may want to change his/her work in future. Therefore maybe a mandatory decision about future Mods during upload could solve the problem (and the discussion).

Now the good news. I just received permission from destruk to use his VP8 version of Junk Yard as a basis. As all my reworked graphics are made from scratch, it will be done in short term.

Regards
Michael

[koadic]

I think TheMcD and FDSystems are totally right. A forum or online community is in need of very strict rules. I too witnessed some minor discussions to leave topic and become war. For this I will stick to the "old way". On the other hand I think, everyone who uploads content should be aware of the possibility that someone may want to change his/her work in future. Therefore maybe a mandatory decision about future Mods during upload could solve the problem (and the discussion).

Now the good news. I just received permission from destruk to use his VP8 version of Junk Yard as a basis. As all my reworked graphics are made from scratch, it will be done in short term.

Regards
Michael

With the new forum setup, authors can choose to give permission when uploading. That being said, glad to hear you can upload your mod now, even if you have to do a little extra work to do so.