185 replies to this topic

[epthegeek]

Having the engine be 3d would give you real angle independence and proper use of modern 3d hardware for things like lighting and reflection at the bare minimum.

I can't imagine doing numerous copies of a moving item like the box in TOM or the hand in TAF is "easy" in 2d -- it's just what people are used to. Having to use 4 copies of the same texture with various light levels to fake lights is taxing on older hardware, just like using a real 3d engine for lighting would be.

Sure, there are improvements that could be made to VP as is, but I don't think 3d is a negative. I think if that other '3D pinball design and play' program hooked into pinmame, you'd see people making recreation tables for that the same way they do now for VP.

[The Trout]

Having the engine be 3d would give you real angle independence and proper use of modern 3d hardware for things like lighting and reflection at the bare minimum.

I can't imagine doing numerous copies of a moving item like the box in TOM or the hand in TAF is "easy" in 2d -- it's just what people are used to. Having to use 4 copies of the same texture with various light levels to fake lights is taxing on older hardware, just like using a real 3d engine for lighting would be.

Sure, there are improvements that could be made to VP as is, but I don't think 3d is a negative. I think if that other '3D pinball design and play' program hooked into pinmame, you'd see people making recreation tables for that the same way they do now for VP.

This man speaks the truth. A 3D engine would bring with it better real-time lighting and more realistic tables, among other things. I suspect that if it were coded well, it would actually run better too, since modern graphics cards really aren't build for 2D gaming. Honestly, if VP just looked like FP, I'd be the happiest boy in the whole world. If FP ever got rom support and better physics, I'd jump ship to it in a New York minute.

[wtiger]

Kristian - we need coders. I think Manowar might be looking at the source code, Magikbuble is looking it over, Maddes will have some free time 'soon'

Destruk,
Thanks for that bit of info. I've been wondering (and hoping) that there were some out there other than yourself that were looking at it.

[kristian]

Kristian - we need coders. I think Manowar might be looking at the source code, Magikbuble is looking it over, Maddes will have some free time 'soon' and I've been working so much on tables I don't think I can do more vp updates for awhile. I talked to Moonchild, thinking because he makes games for XBox he might want to get better alpha channels into VP, but apparently he doesn't do the directX code at all on the games he makes professionally - he just does artwork. I was hoping he could help.

As far as 'starting from scratch' - feel free to do so. If it's better I'll recode/rebuild/redo every table I've ever made for VP and Future Pinball too with whatever you guys come up with, and that's the truth. At this point though I really don't think VP is 'all that bad' - meaning it isn't particularly loud in screaming for a total rebuild of the software.

I wasn't even thinking about complete rebuild of VP... it's absolutely awesome how it is now. I don't like FP at all (although now I have a computer that can run it properly). I was thinking more of easier bugfixes and all that... now that we have access to the source code.

VP has been successful for 10 years and regarding table recreations (VPM) it's alone at the top.

I don't know why people are obsessed with eyecandy... I'm a big sports game fan and hockey & soccer games got much WORSE after they went "next gen". NHL 2004 and PES5 are still the best simulations by a ridiculous margin... sure the next-gen games look great with all those fine textures but the actual game ai has only gone backwards. That's exactly how I feel about VP -> FP thing... if a pinball simulation can ever feel even remotely "genuine", VP really does that... it's not even measurable... you can't put your finger on it... but the "spirit" is there. FP feels plasticy and sterile... I don't like it... and I'm not sure if I want VP to move into that direction just for the sake of "modernizing" it.

There's the old saying "if it ain't broken, don't fix it"...!!

[Noah Fentz]

I have a whole list in front of me that I will be posting in the VP Dev section here shortly.

[The Trout]

I don't know why people are obsessed with eyecandy... I'm a big sports game fan and hockey & soccer games got much WORSE after they went "next gen". NHL 2004 and PES5 are still the best simulations by a ridiculous margin... sure the next-gen games look great with all those fine textures but the actual game ai has only gone backwards. That's exactly how I feel about VP -> FP thing... if a pinball simulation can ever feel even remotely "genuine", VP really does that... it's not even measurable... you can't put your finger on it... but the "spirit" is there. FP feels plasticy and sterile... I don't like it... and I'm not sure if I want VP to move into that direction just for the sake of "modernizing" it.

Why can't we have both? We all love the way VP actually PLAYS - we just wanna make it look a lot prettier. Why should table recreations be stuck in the year 2002 with flat 2D reels, checkerboard ramps, and hard-edged transparencies? If VP doesn't modernize its graphics, we won't even be able to run the damn thing in a few years. I'm sure that's fine if you build a dedicated system just for VP or never bother to upgrade your computer, but I ain't living in the past. I built a new computer late last year, primarily for gaming. It plays all modern games at full speed with most of the graphics options maxed out. I can even emulate Wii and PS2 games at full speed! Yet because VP is still purely 2D and built for graphics cards almost a decade old, I still have trouble running many tables. And trying to run UVP on top of that? Forget about it.

Honestly, I think the way VP LOOKS needs to be rebuilt from the ground up with 3D models and real-time lighting. But God knows I can't do it and I know it'd probably be years of work, so whatever. And naturally, that'd make every current table non-functional. But I have serious concerns that a few years down the line, I won't even be able to run VP anymore because my computer will actually be up to date.

(And lest you think I'm just obsessed with the graphics, rest assured that I'm actually a hardcore retro gamer that counts the NES as his favorite game console. But if we're trying to recreate and PRESERVE pinball machines, shouldn't they look as much like the real thing as possible? That just ain't gonna happen in 2D.)

[destruk]

A few years? What is your estimate?
It ran on windows 98. It ran on windows 2000, it ran on windows xp with a single fix, it runs on windows vista, it runs on windows 7.... People I know are still using windows 98 - and today's vp9, with a semi-decent video card, can still run on the windows 98 platform. Needless to say (happy me), I have a brand new Core i860 with a 260gtx 898 mb ram, 8 GB of system ram, a terabyte of hard drive space, and it runs vp without a single hiccup - same with Future Pinball. So maybe you should get a new system sooner, rather than later, so vp will work better for you? I still love your work Trout.

[TheMcD]

IMO, we'd probably be better off writing a new program than trying to "upgrade" VP. From what I've gathered, fundamentally changing the way a program works may require more work than just starting fresh.

...but then again, I might just be talking out of my rear, since I don't actually know that much about programming. Half a year in school with Java, that's 'bout it.

The McD

[destruk]

(And lest you think I'm just obsessed with the graphics, rest assured that I'm actually a hardcore retro gamer that counts the NES as his favorite game console. But if we're trying to recreate and PRESERVE pinball machines, shouldn't they look as much like the real thing as possible? That just ain't gonna happen in 2D.)

If 2D is the best possible, then yes, it happens every day here. Currently 2D VP is the best possible, so I'm confused by your statement. VP uses roms, so pseudo-3D with roms is the most accurate simulation. In the future, whenever that may be, the 'possible' will most definately have moved, and then the tables will be changed too, to take advantage of the new possibilities. ? right?

[Rawd]

I have heard rumours of some good things coming from Slammit pinball.

- Full 3D environment
- Full editor with model importer
- Head tracking AND support for 3DTV for the full 3D effect on cabinets

Of course.. these are just rumours. And this would really only be good for originals, as I am pretty sure they will not include rom supprt.

[The Trout]

A few years? What is your estimate?
It ran on windows 98. It ran on windows 2000, it ran on windows xp with a single fix, it runs on windows vista, it runs on windows 7.... People I know are still using windows 98 - and today's vp9, with a semi-decent video card, can still run on the windows 98 platform. Needless to say (happy me), I have a brand new Core i860 with a 260gtx 898 mb ram, 8 GB of system ram, a terabyte of hard drive space, and it runs vp without a single hiccup - same with Future Pinball. So maybe you should get a new system sooner, rather than later, so vp will work better for you? I still love your work Trout.

My problem isn't that I need a new system - my problem is that I HAVE a new, modern gaming system that still chokes on VP with reasonable frequency. It's not that operating systems will prevent VP from running, it's that modern graphics cards will eventually eliminate much of the legacy features that VP currently uses. I seem to recall reading somewhere that VP was designed with DirectX 7 in mind, and that it actually runs better on a DX7 system than DX10. What happens when DX15 rolls around and VP runs even worse? Yeah, you can always downgrade and keep old hardware lying around, but isn't that severely limiting VP's audience? I can't count how many games I used to love playing in Windows 95 or 98, only to find that I simply CAN'T play them now. They either don't run or run with severe graphics problems.

Anyway, I love VP, don't get me wrong. I'd just love it a lot more if it looked like FP and wasn't stuck using graphics technology from ten years ago.

Of course, none of this rambling is very constructive. Despite having VP's source code, rewriting the graphics engine to take advantage of (or even just be optimized for) modern graphics cards is hardly feasible. It's the kind of thing that'd have to be built into a new program from scratch, which I really don't see anyone doing anytime soon.

If 2D is the best possible, then yes, it happens every day here. Currently 2D VP is the best possible, so I'm confused by your statement. VP uses roms, so pseudo-3D with roms is the most accurate simulation. In the future, whenever that may be, the 'possible' will most definately have moved, and then the tables will be changed too, to take advantage of the new possibilities. ? right?

Exactly! As you say, 2D VP is the best possible right now - and it's been the best possible for a DECADE. Of course, as you say, we'll be able to take advantage of new possibilities in the future when things have changed, but how much have they really even changed in the past ten years? Off the top of my head, we've had improved physics, transparent ramps, and 16:9 support. Granted, those are awesome, but I think a larger leap forward has gotta be made. Actually, one of those changes (16:9 tables) only serves to emphasize the need for 3D objects, superior lighting, and 24-bit transparency (among other things) - with larger full screen tables comes much higher standards for graphics, since you can see so much more of the table itself from different angles.

Edited by The Trout, 07 May 2010 - 05:34 PM.

[kristian]

(And lest you think I'm just obsessed with the graphics, rest assured that I'm actually a hardcore retro gamer that counts the NES as his favorite game console. But if we're trying to recreate and PRESERVE pinball machines, shouldn't they look as much like the real thing as possible? That just ain't gonna happen in 2D.)

If 2D is the best possible, then yes, it happens every day here. Currently 2D VP is the best possible, so I'm confused by your statement. VP uses roms, so pseudo-3D with roms is the most accurate simulation.

I agree with this. Although FP tables are probably superior "technically", the 3D creates some kind of "unrealistic", plasticy "feel". It doesn't feel and play accurate... maybe it's partly the FP ball physics to blame... but if I look at some of JP's table creations I simply can't believe pinball could be simulated more accurately than that.

And yeah...I have all Pro Pinball tables and I like them... but I still prefer 2D VP... call it "living in the past" if you want....but the 3D recreations simply don't feel the same... and just as I said, I can't put my finger on it, but they look "fake" to me.

Maybe the toys could be 3D though... I'm sure it'd be an improvement.... but I'm not sure if I want the whole table to be fully 3D rendered.

[Rawd]

(And lest you think I'm just obsessed with the graphics, rest assured that I'm actually a hardcore retro gamer that counts the NES as his favorite game console. But if we're trying to recreate and PRESERVE pinball machines, shouldn't they look as much like the real thing as possible? That just ain't gonna happen in 2D.)

If 2D is the best possible, then yes, it happens every day here. Currently 2D VP is the best possible, so I'm confused by your statement. VP uses roms, so pseudo-3D with roms is the most accurate simulation.

I agree with this. Although FP tables are probably superior "technically", the 3D creates some kind of "unrealistic", plasticy "feel". It doesn't feel and play accurate... maybe it's partly the FP ball physics to blame... but if I look at some of JP's table creations I simply can't believe pinball could be simulated more accurately than that.

And yeah...I have all Pro Pinball tables and I like them... but I still prefer 2D VP... call it "living in the past" if you want....but the 3D recreations simply don't feel the same... and just as I said, I can't put my finger on it, but they look "fake" to me.

That is comparing VP with FP, and that is only your opinion. I am envisioning something new, with photo-realistic graphics. I thought that JP's VP tables and Popottes FP tables looked pretty damn close to realistic, until I saw the Slammit engine. Back in 2000, I thought that some of the driving games could not get any better, and look what we have today.

I feel that virtual pinball needs to go the augmented reality route in order to ever come close to re-creating the real experience. For now, I am loving what I have with VP9 and FP, and looking forward to the future.

Also.. Lighting is soo much easier to produce, and looks soo much better in a real 3D environment. I find it amazing what the VP9 authors do to fake this stuff in 2D.

[destruk]

If it's on a computer, it is all faked. Morpheus asks - is that "Real color" you are seeing now? Is it? Or is it a simple piece of phosphor faking color, or an LED faking color and reality?

[Rawd]

If it's on a computer, it is all faked. Morpheus asks - is that "Real color" you are seeing now? Is it? Or is it a simple piece of phosphor faking color, or an LED faking color and reality?

Heh.. You are all just a figment of my imagination anyhow.



It will get there someday.. or are we it?

Not sure if you guys saw this video I made awhile back...

This is the first augmented reality pinball seen through my homemade MyVue glasses with a webcam velcroed to the top. ..........





Hey! It's a start!

[epthegeek]

I have heard rumours of some good things coming from Slammit pinball.

- Full 3D environment
- Full editor with model importer
- Head tracking AND support for 3DTV for the full 3D effect on cabinets

Of course.. these are just rumours. And this would really only be good for originals, as I am pretty sure they will not include rom supprt.

Sounds cool, but with the lack of any updates to the slammit site I figured they were done.

[Rawd]

Sounds cool, but with the lack of any updates to the slammit site I figured they were done.

They sure are quiet. Their forum is being overrun by bots as well. Vito keeps saying Big news soon though.

[destruk]

As long as they don't say "Any Day Now" I can be happy...

[TheMcD]

As long as they don't say "Any Day Now" I can be happy...

What's worse? "Any day now" or "when it's done"?

The McD

[destruk]

Any day now implies that it could be today, tomorrow, or the next day. When it's done means I would check their website once a month. Being told Any Day Now for 9+ months, every day, makes that about as meaningless to me as "underrated" is. Cool MyVue glasses Rawd!