1972 replies to this topic

[Saybrook]

Have you set fps limit to 144 with frame pacing or set it to 0?

I set it to 0.

[Umpa]

Does anyone use a G-Sync monitor with frame pacing?  I have a PC with a Nvidia 3060ti, Intel i5-12400, 2k 144Hz G-Sync monitor, Windows 11.  The G-Sync is enabled in the Nvidia settings.  I get stutter on frame pacing vs. none using vsync in the VPX settings.  I've tried disabling Windows Security real-time monitoring and that does not seem to help.  Tried Windowed vs. Fullscreen, still no difference.  My smoothest is Fullscreen exclusive with vsync.,  Most tables run sub 144Hz so not sure what else to try? 

I tried with g sync enabled with frame pacing using dx version and had some ball stutter on certain tables. Switched to open gl version with frame pacing and gysnc off. No more stutters.

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[BostonBuckeye]

 

 

Does anyone use a G-Sync monitor with frame pacing?  I have a PC with a Nvidia 3060ti, Intel i5-12400, 2k 144Hz G-Sync monitor, Windows 11.  The G-Sync is enabled in the Nvidia settings.  I get stutter on frame pacing vs. none using vsync in the VPX settings.  I've tried disabling Windows Security real-time monitoring and that does not seem to help.  Tried Windowed vs. Fullscreen, still no difference.  My smoothest is Fullscreen exclusive with vsync.,  Most tables run sub 144Hz so not sure what else to try? 

 

disable G-Sync?

 

I'm asking if anyone uses it successfully with G-Sync enabled.

 

Hi Saybrook,

We have very similar set ups. I am running a Nvidia 4070ti, Intel i9-13900k, 2k 144mhz G-Sync monitor, Windows 11. I use the GL version of 10.8 even though I don't play in VR. It seems to run better for me than the DX version. Vsync runs better for me than frame pacing as well. With frame pacing I will get a random stutter every now and then. There are a couple of tables I get a serious amount of stutter on like Futurama. That one is unplayable for me.

[Drybonz]

G-Sync is fine for me.  I think some of it might be if you are on the border or over what your hardware can handle for a given table.  But like weisshund said, if it works fine with it off, just turn it off.

[DKong]

Hi Saybrook,

 

We have very similar set ups. I am running a Nvidia 4070ti, Intel i9-13900k, 2k 144mhz G-Sync monitor, Windows 11. I use the GL version of 10.8 even though I don't play in VR. It seems to run better for me than the DX version. Vsync runs better for me than frame pacing as well. With frame pacing I will get a random stutter every now and then. There are a couple of tables I get a serious amount of stutter on like Futurama. That one is unplayable for me.

 

 

Wow even with your beefy system, you are getting stutter? I'm ready to move away from a 4K 60hz PF screen to a 4K 120hz screen. I was going to get an Nvidia 4070 or 4070ti to run with my Intel i7 7700k to power the new screen.

 

I don't get any stutter on my current setup running a GTX1080, but now I'm starting to wonder what specs are needed to truly avoid any stutter at 4K 120hz on the latest releases.

[makmak]

"I don't get any stutter on my current setup..."

Never change a running system then!!

My in all aspects outdated system sometimes runs smooth with brand new VPW tables on 'older' VPX Versions but not with the latest, the next dax i cant get rid of stutter on less fancy tables, no matter what vpx version i use. And believe me, i have tried ALL possible combinations of settings in and out of vpx. I came to the conclusion: its pure luck 😂 (speaking of MY system).

[Crrispy]

If you enable frame pacing, disable g-sync and vsync. I never saw any tearing like this, there are not many moving parts there.

[Dipkid]

I use g-sync on my lg c2 & rtx 3070, frame pacing set to 0. nvidia settings v-sync off. max frames 117. I dont get stutter, but i do struggle with getting a decent  steady 117 fps on the newer VPW tables, but that might have to do with my cpu, or the fact that my 3070 acts a bit fried and loud.
(If I enable v-sync, stuff drops to like 60-70 fps)

[Crrispy]

The 3070 is the bottleneck here now in 4K, whatever settings are used.

[RetroLord]

Hi Team, not sure if this is Visual Pinball (10.8 beta 8) or Pinupplayer (1.5 beta) issue but I will report the anmolies - it's persistent problem.

 

For any puppack they have like a video in the backdrop but plays in in the playfield or apron , vpinball won't exit cleanly(using q to quite not escape) as it's not closing pinup process as expected and hangs VP, force to close those pinup elements from task manager and have to use task manager to kill process for vpinball.

Few example tables:

- IronMaiden Legacy of the Beast PRO Tribute

- The Last Starfighter (1984)

- Johnny Mnemonic LE

- Pink Floyd (Pupversion)

- ...

 

It exist cleanly with vpinball 10.7 doe... odd

@everyone This problem still persist even with latest 10.8 (RC1) - can anyone please report this to git repo please.

Crash report VPX - v10.8.0 Beta (Rev. 1873 (bdd0673), windows DirectX 64bits)

============

Process: VPinballX.exe

Reason: 0xC0000005 - EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION at 0033:0000000140289F0F

Attempt to read from 0x00000388

Thread ID: 0x48B0 [18608]

 

Call stack

==========

0000000040289F0F  (0x00000001 0x16507010 0x00000000 0x4034cac6)

 

Environment

===========

Date/time: 6/2/2024, 11:49:51:425

Number of CPUs: 16

Processor type: 8664

System: Windows 10 (10.0 22621)

 

Memory status

=============

Total Reserved: 632400K (617M) bytes

Total Commited: 1326896K (1295M) bytes

Total Free: 2234944K (2182M) bytes

Largest Free: 2056084K (2007M) bytes

 

Registers

=========

RAX=ED558CCD RBX=34561580 RCX=00000360 RDX=34561580

RSI=00000284 RDI=00000358 RBP=0014D0B0 RSP=0014CF38 RIP=40289F0F

FLG=00010202 CS=0033 DS=002B SS=002B ES=002B FS=0053 GS=002B

 

 

Failed to save minidump.

Edited by RetroLord, 06 February 2024 - 03:51 PM.

[Pete248]

Recommended setting for fps limit is 1 for frame pacing on GL according to the VP 10.8 docs. I had problem with this reverting to 24 always so I've set it to the refresh rate of my TV.
In your case this would be 144. Give it a try.
If you set it to 0 it renders more frames on fast hardware than it actually displays. In theory that should not matter other than wasting resources. In practice it can limit free resources in demanding situations.

Edited by Pete248, 06 February 2024 - 07:33 PM.

[SmedleyB]

Regarding GSynch, you can see fine performance with it enabled, but VPX does not use it. -> "Disable v-sync in your GPU drivers or any other user sync including your monitor's Free-/G-Sync (VPX will not use it)."

 

Regarding a one-size-fits-all-tables POV, that is what Windowed POV is designed to be. You are telling VPX the dimensions and installation angle of your playfield monitor and you are also telling VPX where to position the camera, which is the location of your eyeballs (the position of your eyeballs in 3d space relative to your playfield monitor -> This is the Player X, Y, Z).

 

VPX takes those settings in combination with the table dimensions and top and bottom glass height distance saved in the VPX file to draw the POV accurately for your eyeballs on your cab. But there are many tables where the glass height distance is not defined correctly, which leads to a poor POV and you needing to adjust the Top and Bottom Z offsets. The top and bottom glass height defines the glass angle (on top of the defined playfield slope angle) and VPX will draw the playfield relative to the angle of your playfield monitor. Imagine that VPX is treating your playfield monitor screen as the glass and is sinking the playfield down into it. Those who have their playfield monitor installed at around 10-15 degrees will likely get the most real-life like auto generated POVs.

 

Now what is confusing in the most recent releases compared to the earlier betas is that the starting point for the Player Y measurement has changed. It used to be the center bottom of your playfield monitor, but I don't know what it is now. But either way, you should be able to find a proper value that needs minimal to no tweaking from table to table.

Edited by SmedleyB, 02 June 2024 - 01:45 PM.

[Pete248]

Good explanation of windowed POV. 👍
Want to add that I had one EM (either Eight Ball Deluxe or Williams Honey) where the playfield dimensions were not set correctly. General POV settings thus were off by a wide margin and I had to adjust both y scale and y translation.

[Saybrook]

Thanks to everyone for the frame pacing responses.  It is interesting to see so many different approaches for system setups.  Good thing the VPX developers gave us so many options!!!  I've tried a few things (not GL yet as I had poor performance last I tried it).  It seems that enabling G-Sync actually smooths things out for me.  If VPX doesn't use it I'm not sure how that works.  Just played the new VPW FIsh Tales.  Frame rates are indicated around 90fps (on 144Hz monitor).  Using Full Screen exclusive, vsync on, max frames 0, G-Sync enabled in Nvidia settings.

 

Just tried GL.  Holy smokes, performance is awful.  Would love to know how our systems are so different!

Edited by Saybrook, 06 February 2024 - 11:15 PM.

[Urko]

I believe GL is primarily for VR.

[kaledev]

It's interesting that setting the monitor size is working for some folks in window mode. Mine was way off for every table which is why I set them back to zero. It's frustrating because I feel like the x/y will shift again in future releases and I'll have to readjust every table.

[wiesshund]

It seems that enabling G-Sync actually smooths things out for me.  If VPX doesn't use it I'm not sure how that works.

G-Sync is between the driver and the Display

the display has certain sync rates it can hit

When driver detects it is outputting below the normal sync rate, it attempts to vsync at the next valid rate the monitor can do and asks the monitor to adjust the sync rate.

 

G-Sync is not generally optimal for VPinball because as sync rate walks around, so does table reaction times and flipper latency.

 

If G-SYnc makes things appear visually smoother, at a guess i would say that
FPS must be wandering about kind of widely.

And is screen is refreshing at lets just say 144hz, and fps bounces around from 144fps to 90fps to 62fps to 100fps etc

you begin getting lots of frame shearing, which is terribly annoying to say the least.

 

You can get frame shearing even with super high fps
run say 280 fps on a 70hz display for example, and while the fps will be great, what you see on screen wont look super pleasant.

 

With VPX, since mostly it is the ball moving, shearing tends to look like the ball is moving all flakey.

 

You mention you average about 90fps

90fps does not sync into 144Hz well
This is where gsync is trying to help you out.

 

If this is a dedicated v pin, one might also set the monitor itself to sync at 90Hz or 75Hz whatever it supports.

See Vsync will sync at 144hz, this is good if you are running constantly over 144fps, but does nothing helpful if you consistent run below 144

So what is the advantage of setting a display to sync at a lower rate by default rather than use G sync?

Well in VPX terms it means everything is static, the refresh rate does not move, so timing and latency is a constant and so predictable.

 

How much that matters depends on how good are you at pinball?

If you are me, then you arent good enough to tell the difference LOL

 

But this might be what you are dealing with, that you might perceive as stuttering

You might be experiencing frame shearing due to out of sync frames, which basically get all sliced apart and dont align with the next drawn frame

[Urko]

Im not really good at pinball but i started off with a  60hz monitor in my cabinet, and really noticed the overall massive difference when i upgraded to 144hz.

I couldnt go back to 60hz now.

Edited by Urko, 07 February 2024 - 12:33 AM.

[dan_shane]

I believe GL is primarily for VR.

 

GL is not just for VR anymore. The 3D modes in GL are now true stereo instead of being synthesized as in the DirectX version of VPX.

[Saybrook]

 

It seems that enabling G-Sync actually smooths things out for me.  If VPX doesn't use it I'm not sure how that works.

G-Sync is between the driver and the Display

the display has certain sync rates it can hit

When driver detects it is outputting below the normal sync rate, it attempts to vsync at the next valid rate the monitor can do and asks the monitor to adjust the sync rate.

 

G-Sync is not generally optimal for VPinball because as sync rate walks around, so does table reaction times and flipper latency.

 

If G-SYnc makes things appear visually smoother, at a guess i would say that
FPS must be wandering about kind of widely.

And is screen is refreshing at lets just say 144hz, and fps bounces around from 144fps to 90fps to 62fps to 100fps etc

you begin getting lots of frame shearing, which is terribly annoying to say the least.

 

You can get frame shearing even with super high fps
run say 280 fps on a 70hz display for example, and while the fps will be great, what you see on screen wont look super pleasant.

 

With VPX, since mostly it is the ball moving, shearing tends to look like the ball is moving all flakey.

 

You mention you average about 90fps

90fps does not sync into 144Hz well
This is where gsync is trying to help you out.

 

If this is a dedicated v pin, one might also set the monitor itself to sync at 90Hz or 75Hz whatever it supports.

See Vsync will sync at 144hz, this is good if you are running constantly over 144fps, but does nothing helpful if you consistent run below 144

So what is the advantage of setting a display to sync at a lower rate by default rather than use G sync?

Well in VPX terms it means everything is static, the refresh rate does not move, so timing and latency is a constant and so predictable.

 

How much that matters depends on how good are you at pinball?

If you are me, then you arent good enough to tell the difference LOL

 

But this might be what you are dealing with, that you might perceive as stuttering

You might be experiencing frame shearing due to out of sync frames, which basically get all sliced apart and dont align with the next drawn frame

 

Thank you for the detailed reply.  I don't seem to get any shearing.  A lot of games will run up to the 144Hz.  I don't notice any latency.  I built the cab specifically because I could not stand the flipper lag using OTG on the Atgames pinball.  I absolutely could not stand flipper latency.  I also can't stand any stutter what so ever.  I think however my setup is working at the current settings it is working well.  I was hoping that the frame pacing would give some perceivable performance gain but I guess not for me.

Edited by Saybrook, 07 February 2024 - 03:21 AM.