2087 replies to this topic

[gtxjoe]

Regarding NBA Fastbreak lighting of the inlane plastics.  Ramps are used for lighting, I was able to fix the lighting by changing those ramps from solid to alpha. 

ramp536

ramp224

ramp537

ramp538

[naboodiver]

 

Does anyone know if [WhiteWater] is fixable now (see image below) and how (running on DX9 Test 13)?

 

Yes, with the new Depth Bias adjustment.  Open the table and go to Edit, Select Element, and select l17, l17a, l17b, l55, l55a, and l55b (ctl-click to select them all at once).  On the right input "-50" for the Depth Bias.   

 

 

I have the same problem with Star Wars Trilogy's cannon.    Can someone tell the the elements to select to correct?

[gtxjoe]

Anyone have problems loading melons new CFTBL ?

 

I just downloaded 

CFTBL http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9440

and

RAB http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=8782

 

I can't open these files in test13 or test12a.  VP crashes when opening the file.  If I open them in test11 and save them once, then I can open them in can open them in test12a or test13

 

EDIT:  I can't seem to reproduce this consistently.  Strange. I am not sure if it has any relation to using or not using "Run as administrator".  I don't know - keep an eye out for this, I guess

Edited by gtxjoe, 28 March 2014 - 01:31 AM.

[gtxjoe]

I have the same problem with Star Wars Trilogy's cannon.    Can someone tell the the elements to select to correct?

 

 

 Open the table and go to Edit, Select Element, and select l63 and l64 (ctl-click to select them both).  On the right input "-50" for the Depth Bias

Edited by gtxjoe, 28 March 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[naboodiver]

 

I have the same problem with Star Wars Trilogy's cannon.    Can someone tell the the elements to select to correct?

 

 

 Open the table and go to Edit, Select Element, and select l64 and l64 (ctl-click to select them both).  On the right input "-50" for the Depth Bias

 

Thank you !!

[bent98]

 

 

However, since this latest build test13, walls using .png images and a transparency setting of 123,123,123 now have rough / discoloured (lighter) edges.  Using .png images with an alpha / feathered edge and no set solid colour background had previously led to the smoothest edges I had ever achieved with VP on my mods and improved image quality / softened the hardness between wall images and their backgrounds.  It was working fine with all test versions up to 13 and here is a comparison of 12a vs. 13 below respectively with some sample objects from my WIP AFM GI8 mod placed in an independent test table, which I'm also attaching.  It's zoomed in on the screen shot and the view settings for the attached table and can be easily reproduced by simply running in the latest and any previous version (test12a specifically).

 

Capture of Wall Edges Dawn Properly in Test12a.PNG

 

Capture of Wall Edges Dawn Roughly in Test13.PNG

 

This is an unfortunate inevitability when using prerendered elements. They cannot use this sort of alpha feathering since, as soon as for instance a ball rolls behind this edge, the feathering will stay at the precomputed values and not let the ball shine throI;

I'm sorry mukuste, but this answer makes no sense to me.  Are you not seeing that the pictures are different (worse) from test12a to test13?  That is, something has totally changed between versions to make these edges on these type of walls different and noticably worse.  Talking about this element as if it's simply an inevitability when it's a new issue doesn't really answer the question appropriately as to why it has just started and, honestly, gives little hope of actually being addressed - as it totally should be.  This continues a trend of graphical degradations and deviations from VP921 where these type of issues seem to continue to not get much concern or attention and feels like always an uphill battle to get due focus and a commitment on resolution.  Now here seemingly even recognizing the problem and the key logical element that the answer doesn't even fit the fact that the problem is new since test13.  Seems to me something with the changes in transparency aspects that have been introduced (with a bug on ramps) in test12/test12a and now maybe the fix to address those transparency issues in test12a has caused this new issue?  

 

Please address this issue for what it is - new and undesirable. I really hope this trend of the acceptance of graphical issues can be broken as this will be quite sad if VP is to now just simply have to accept this type of quality when we can clearly see that something has changed only in the last version to cause this.  Things at times are maybe just too quick to be answered away vs. actually seeing that there's a real problem and here I don't see any reason why if it worked in test12a and before, has to be something that, from the answer, is something we're just going to have to live with. This is very distressing to see as someone who cares about the quality of how VP looks but can not jump in to your coding and do what you guys do (we're still at your mercy of wanting to spend the time on the areas that maybe not important to you but are to others even if us authors are already a minority and even more so the ones who build and notice when edges aren't clean).

 

I have to agree with Jimmy on this one. Don't get me wrong, we are all very appreciative of all the time and effort thats going into making a dx9 port. So many obstacles you are encountering to try and make tables compatible as much as possible. It's a balancing act to try and squeeze every last bit of performance out of the engine while maintaining compatibility and preserving quality. All this while trying to get people to report a bug properly, or someone asking every couple of days when the DX9 version will be completed. (You have your hands full)

 

I think as much as everyone wants DX9 version of VP I for one do not want to use it if quality goes out the window. I also hope the the dev team can also look into getting Anti Aliasing working properly as well as this would be a game changer in my eyes. 

 

Everyone has a different perception of whats good. Some people are happy with mediocre physics and graphics or don't bother to do GI lighting. I know its a hobby and people are doing it for the joy of pinball and thats awesome. I just think sometimes we encourage mediocrity instead of striving to raise the bar as high as possible and keep it there. 

 

I in no way mean to offend anyone, I am just stating my own opinion as it relates to putting out a body of work. Quality over quantity.I would rather have 50 or 100 amazing tables then having 500 ok tables on my cab.

 

I really hope you can address those graphical issues but either way thank you for all your hard work on this project. Lets ensure that when this port is finalized it exceeds what we have now without sacrifice.

[DJRobX]

 This continues a trend of graphical degradations and deviations from VP921 where these type of issues seem to continue to not get much concern or attention and feels like always an uphill battle to get due focus and a commitment on resolution.

 

 

I agree that quality is something we should shoot for, and I agree that this item ought to make it onto the list of things we should try to restore full functionality to, for the 9.3 release.   That said, the above statement seems a bit harsh.   We've been spoiled every week with a new version of DX9 VP that's almost always better than the week before it.    We take steps backwards now and then - that's part of the development process.    Please take a deep breath and remember that Mukuste is doing this for us for free, on his own time, and asks nothing from us.  In the land of free software the level of "focus and commitment" we are getting here is pretty darn impressive.   The minute this stops being fun for him, he might be gone. 

 

In my experience, having uphill battles with developers is normal when doing QA.  Sometimes it just takes a few rounds to get your point across, or to get your priorities in alignment.  

[The Loafer]

I think there's a point there made by Jimmy for sure, but I don't think Mukuste's answer meant "tough noogies forever".  Perhaps the understanding is at the moment there may not be a possible solution but there are other ways to look into a problem that can then raise a light bulb and there are other devs that can look at a given issue and come up with a solution (we've seen this in this thread)

 

Whether a point is made or not, I think it's a rude way of bringing it up.  I've seen great responses by the dev team to almost every issue brought up, so the sky is not falling, at least not yet.  I have a feeling some days the bazillion hacks infesting VP probably drive them nuts and after the torrid pace of the past two months I think has earned us not assuming the worse here, no?  It's not like we keep hearing "sorry you're out of luck" continuously when issues come up.

 

We can't get anywhere without the awesome testing that you've done Jimmy and as I said, a very valid point was made, but I don't think it's asking much to show a little patience here.  Has it not been earned?  Let's see what Mukuste and the other devs come up with.

 

Sorry about this post, but as much as good points were made there, I just think that went over the edge.  Excuse the expression but basically we are all fubared if finger pointing starts and although I'm sure that wasn't the intent, it certainly can be misconstrued that way too.

[somberkiss]

Wow this is great, the fps is thru the roof, on new tables from melon that lag like a bastard in existing vp.

[bent98]

I think there's a point there made by Jimmy for sure, but I don't think Mukuste's answer meant "tough noogies forever".  Perhaps the understanding is at the moment there may not be a possible solution but there are other ways to look into a problem that can then raise a light bulb and there are other devs that can look at a given issue and come up with a solution (we've seen this in this thread)

 

Whether a point is made or not, I think it's a rude way of bringing it up.  I've seen great responses by the dev team to almost every issue brought up, so the sky is not falling, at least not yet.  I have a feeling some days the bazillion hacks infesting VP probably drive them nuts and after the torrid pace of the past two months I think has earned us not assuming the worse here, no?  It's not like we keep hearing "sorry you're out of luck" continuously when issues come up.

 

We can't get anywhere without the awesome testing that you've done Jimmy and as I said, a very valid point was made, but I don't think it's asking much to show a little patience here.  Has it not been earned?  Let's see what Mukuste and the other devs come up with.

 

Sorry about this post, but as much as good points were made there, I just think that went over the edge.  Excuse the expression but basically we are all fubared if finger pointing starts and although I'm sure that wasn't the intent, it certainly can be misconstrued that way too.

 

Maybe I am wrong but I don't think its about patience on Jimmy's part as its more about the impression he got that it the issue will not be resolved.

[The Loafer]

IMHO "this continues a trend..." sentence was over the top.  My opinion, notice I didn't tell anyone to go to hell

[jimmyfingers]

There is a trend, maybe a smaller / shorter one, but several graphical elements have fallen by the wayside in this thread and another one related to the difference in how decals appear in VP921 and these DX9 builds  It's not always feasible to make the 1-2 hour post composition with exact topic number references, screen shots, history as to why an impression / perception exists nor can quickly be explained as to why there is some legitimacy from past dialogue / posts in this belief.  I'll show / re-raise the other areas of graphical concern tomorrow when I have more time and do my usual attempt at diligence to refer to elements in detail and each post where the graphical issue was raised, still remains, and / or arguably didn't seem to be registered much or answered away potentially summarily.  There are ones from Bodydump back regarding light variances / delineated sections from the default table texture and light objects although they were / are using the same texture in Airborne, solid ramp objects (edges again) in World Cup Soccer, and world mode ramp issues when the ramp extends off the set table dimension space.  We’re also still sitting here with many people pushing for an official release while still not having AA working (essentially unplayable with a blinking ball vs. the very playable forced AA options with VP921) and it has not seemed to have been worked on much or yielding much status on progress in that regard aside from possibly just removing the option for the official release (a topic for which I posted some detailed findings that never got any mention or follow-up).  Because other people do not notice details in tables, graphics, or even forum posts does not mean these things do not exist.

 

This particular item was not an issue about patience as I didn't see anything in the brief response that indicated the issue would remain or be considered open nor be worked on in any way and part of my frustration existed as it read / appeared the opposite, despite the worded and graphical evidence I provided of it’s legitimate and new existence.  This wasn't about a mere step backwards as it was not acknowledged as such.  A step backward is to be expected, has been fine to experience, and the majority of the reason I try and report the bugs within the spirit and understanding that those things will indeed exist, but be acknowledged as to not being desirable to exist now nor permanently.  Some of us really also do not need be reminded about one's free time / work regarding their VP contributions as I get that as much as any actual contributing member on this site and have put almost as much time into VP as I have my career over the last two years.

 

I can imagine how my response can seem rude or harsh, but to be blatantly candid, I was pissed to read the response to that bug report after what seemed like a pretty obvious and new issue, but maybe considered “qualitative” by some, and was helped along to that point by the belief / experience that it has been tough at times to try and “sell” a bug or undesirable aspect with these DX9 builds (it took a while to gain steam / acceptance on the ball stuttering issue).  Yes, mukuste is doing this with his free time, so am I and have for a couple years before any of this DX9 stuff started.  He has done an excellent job (a job that was expected to not grace us with it’s presence for much more time than it’s been) and we now have a mostly working DX9 port.  Yet, in this and as a result, he holds the power in his hand to make or break things for VP as it stands and, as someone who has invested a lot of time in other aspects of VP “development”, this can get unnerving and emotionally charged.  Mukuste deserves a ton of praise and I know I’m putting myself in a position to be disliked by the community that wants me to just shut up and not rock the boat and risk him saying “screw you guys…I’m going home”.   I’ve been vocal previously on items like protecting people’s previous investments and some other choices for direction / problem resolutions but also have not been an arm chair quarterback as I have played a huge role in assisting the testing of these builds and reporting in extremely detailed methodolgy the identification of issues along the way – so I ask for some credit.  Him and I have had some private PMs and worked in depth and detail on the stuttering issue, which I also did my part in time investment and we were somewhat embattled with that at times but were able to merge on a mutual path of acknowledgement and understanding – my side of the motivation being both for personally and community considered improved VP experiences / realism. 

 

I’m sorry but I feel I’ve earned some right with my VP contributions and the level of testing / reporting here on these builds to speak up for when I have a concern or feel I have not been adequately listened to about an issue or in general on the direction of VP, at least as far as this compatibility version goes now that it is officially the main VP development stream.  It’d also be nice to recoup some of the time I’ve personally spent over the years by finally being able to play and enjoy some actual virtual pinball (vs. almost all my VP time spent in some development / testing stage) in a smooth running and smooth looking product that’s been so elusive.  It is frustrating to see VP teetering right at the point of being so complete and the best it’s ever been – but not quite there yet.  It’s not my intention to be disrespectful but respect also is a two way street and no one likes to feel dismissed in their efforts and arguably valid points / bugs.  I’m not trying to offend or push Mukuste in any way but there are also other people here who may or may not be pushed away depending on how some of this project and path along the way turns out.  One big thing here is that us table builders / modders end product does not have to be downloaded / played / used by anyone who doesn’t want to (other versions and choices exist) but the end result of what is done here, with this topic / DX9 development / executable, is that we all must use this one program if we are to work with VP at all going forward – and that element should not be lost on what this does to the powerlessness involved or at least people who create with VP.  If it goes in a direction some of us builders don’t agree with on elements of quality, playability, or other, then we’re screwed and will be forced to stay at an older build which will have effects on even the feasibility in releasing tables or even working with them for our own personal gain if some issues don’t even have valid workarounds.   And yes, this powerlessness has a bearing on the emotional aspect that can come into play.

 

This particular new bug / graphic quality issue specifically has negated a shit load of work / time I spent in Photoshop making / refining some of the cleanest wall based images / texture mappings I’ve seen yet in any table (for a still unreleased and now may never be released version of AFM GI8 that I’ve tried to do with photo like quality).  I don’t’ really expect you all or even many of you to get it, but maybe once you’ve spent two nights on a single target graphic or two weekend afternoons redrawing 6x6 mini UFOs to benefit from a previously supported graphical technique, then maybe some of you will understand where I am coming from.

 

Mukuste, I appreciate massively what you’ve done and your skill you’ve demonstrated but you / we are not quite there yet on this project.  I’m going to be willing to bust your balls a little when I don’t agree on a direction, choice, or when I think something has been dismissed which I don’t feel should have been – you’re welcome and I would expect you to do the same towards me.  DJRobX makes a good point about uphill battles with developers being normal when doing QA and a few rounds to get your point across or priorities in alignment.  I’m arguably in a QA role here yet very easily looking like a pugilist so maybe we can just consider this round one or two and acknowledge some embattlement between interested and arguably vested parties.

Edited by jimmyfingers, 28 March 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[Slydog43]

star wars trilogy, what is the other primitive to select as it was mentioned to select l64 and l64 (I dont get it)

 

ok l63 seemed to be the other one.  Still not perfect, but close

Edited by Slydog43, 28 March 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[mukuste]

Yet, in this and as a result, he holds the power in his hand to make or break things for VP as it stands

 

This is blatantly false and I refuse to let myself be painted into this corner where I'm single-handedly responsible for the future of VP, or where I'm slowly dragging the visual quality of VP into the gutter with every change I make. This is an open source project and everyone with the skills and motivation is free to contribute. I hold no power whatsoever over VP.

 

As for the issue you brought up, I gave a specific technical reasoning in my initial reply which you ignored, but which you could easily reproduce in any previous version of VP which does this sort of feathering by having a ball or indeed any moving element behind such an edge.

 

As it stands, I'm taking a break from DX9 work for a while; I'm reasonably happy with the level of compatibility achieved, and any changes I make at this point seem to elicit more complaints than actually solve problems. Add to that the increasing pressure of handling this operation more or less as a one man show (not to disregard the contributions of DJRobX who has made very valuable efforts in troubleshooting and debugging recently).

[unclewilly]

Thanks for all you have done. We appreciate your work.

I hope you will still be involved with vp10 development.

Your work is much appreciated

[atarian]

Thanks mukuste. Don't blame you wanting to take a break with those comments. JF - I hope you will take a break and come back in a while and re-read your comments and realise how unreasonable they are. I honestly can't believe you said that.

Edited by atarian, 28 March 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[JohnnyDoe]

A sad day for VP indeed. I hope you come back some day Mukuste. You are a hero to many on this forum, including me.

Edited by JohnnyDoe, 28 March 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[freezy]

I would probably have reacted the same way.

 

Mukuste, you have given VP an incredible momentum and the calm way you're dealing with the agitated kids is enviable.

[BananaBoat]

Just great, there are certainly ways of conveying a direct message in a respectful manner.

 

I cant believe this just happened, just like that, the prospect of a fully functioning and bug free DX9 port vanishes!

 

Well done!

Edited by BananaBoat, 28 March 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Les73gTx]

I am not going to do it .... I am not going to post angry ... IMO JF your comments to the negative are not helping here as evident from the results that you have recieved concerning post #1633 and more so #1621.
There should in no way ever be any kind of "willing to bust your balls" comments. It is not necessary, required, or warranted.
Thank you Mukuste for all your hard work and your dedication to fixing something that was in long need of an overhaul. I have a Awesome and FREE software because you came along and made it happen. Mad props to you my friend.

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