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The VP 10.3 beta thread


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#141 toxie

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 08:53 AM

 

Congrats Hanz on your new promotion. It sounds like you speak the same language and have similar skills as Toxie and Fuzzel. Is this true? Do you plan on assisting those guys with VP10 development?

I will let toxie answer this one..

 

 

If you have some other cool ideas.. Sure..

In the beginning we usually work with patches with new devs until we think we can let them dig on their own into the VP source (just to avoid trouble and errors in this (still) messy, stone-old, but also awesome ;) sourcebase)..


One quick question. I have been playing on some real pins recently and one thing I noticed that was a real difference to VP was that the ball would jump up off the playfield when hitting certain objects. VP physics seem perfect in two dimensions but with real pins the ball will sometimes react in another dimension i.e. up. Sometime this is only minimal, but on occasions it can be quite dramatic. Playing Spiderman I had the ball twice jump up on the clear plastic cover over the Sandman targets. I know this would be difficult and could make table builds more difficult, but is this something that has been discussed before?

 

Yup, a lot of VPXs physics is still 2.5D, which is good and bad..

Some of my (not yet officially released) efforts were targeted at making it "more 3D" ;) already plus getting rid of some of the not-so-physical-hacks in the source, but some of the testers were not full convinced yet, so it would need quite some more work to make it feel right again (something which won't happen from my side in the near future i fear)..


Quick question: Since VPX uses the bass.dll for playing the sounds, have you any plans to add in the near future support for playing OGG files just like we do now WAV files using the PlaySound command? That should increase the quality of the sounds and music without increasing the file size.

 

Yup, on my todo-list since quite a while, that's also why i mainly introduced bass back then (plus the 64bit compatible conversion of VPX)..

My plan is to simply unify both SFX and music to act exactly the same (plus add some more features, but keeping it backwards compatible)..

More likely to happen than the physics stuff, maybe even for 10.3???!


So I realize this could be just me that has remapped the keys like this, but because I use my arrow keys for flippers and magna save, I can't change the settings of the original camera mode features because they are mapped to flipper and magna save features and the arrow keys are now mapped to the camera panning.

 

Would it be possible to add a section to the preferences>Keys specifically for the panning keys so I can change them to work with my setup?

 

Edit:  also would it be possible to add a key that would reset the view back to it's original position as well (for pan/zoom)?

 

 

 

Could we just use one of the other keys (like left/right tilt, etc) for the navigation? Would that be better?

 


In retrospect I will answer this,  not only do I speak the same language as they do I wrote my own 3D modeling software and  a 3D viewing software for the oil and gas industry, it was really a very special piece of software because it could render ~1billion polygons in a tiled strategy I developed as a near real-time rendered.

Awesome, commence the DX12 migration!

 

 

Just to give you a "quick" impression on how simple this migration would be (and that it must not be necessarily faster than before unless you invest quite some time on all parts of the rendering engine), watch this 2.5h video on how to draw a single triangle (no texture, no lighting, no nothing) in DX12:

;)


Edited by toxie, 10 April 2017 - 08:55 AM.


#142 fuzzel

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:16 AM

Just my two cents: switching to dx12 would mean to drop support of all windows version but windows 10. A lot of users are still using WinXP or Win7 on their cabs and we won't get that much better results. Maybe we should drop WinXP support and switch to dx10 in the future.

#143 flupper1

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:28 AM

Not sure this is the right place to mention this, but something that has always seemed a little off to me about VPX ball physics (which I believe to be the best in video pinball -- Pro Pinball included) is the linearity of accelleration / deceleration of ball movement.

For example: I just watched Laylow's video of NASCAR VPX (great job on this table, requlem, and thanks for the video, Laylow). The speed at which the ball travels seems pretty constant from the point of contact with the flipper, through it's journey up and then down the playfield, back toward the flipper bats.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=GIlCCsxwXPA

Contrast this viewing experience with the NASCAR papa video of the real table (As a sidenote, you'lll see what a nice job requlem did with his recreation if you do!):

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=d786y30E_fE

I'm not exactly sure what I'm seeing here in terms of difference. What I think I see on the real table is lots of fast ball movement, contrasted with equal amounts of slow ball movement. A real world ball seems to move very quickly at first, slows to total deceleration, begins to head back down playfield toward the flippers, and seems to accellerate down the playfield as it does so -- almost seems to form a bell curve (Y being rate of deceleration; X being time -- not sure if this is correct!).

VPX ball physics in contrast seem much more steady and linear throughout in terms of speed: Less deceleration / acceleration of ball speed than I perceive with a real table. I know real world non-linearity can be simulated in VP in part by cranking the friction value way up (high friction = more deceleration) but this subtracts from some effects I like: ballspin and ease of "east / west movement," for example. Another thing you can do is to crank up flipper strength in VPX and get loads of fast ball movement, but it stays fast throughout. I guess I'm looking for more "push / pull" in terms of ball accelleration / deceleration in VPX.

I wouldn't blame you at all, Fuzzle, Toxie, and Hanzoverfist if you choose to ignore this post altogether for the time being! I know you've got a ton of feature requests to respond to. Just putting this on the back burner of your collective minds!

:D

Based on a suggestion by Clark Kent, I started experimenting with an increased ball mass (like 2 instead of 1). Together with lower friction on the playfield (very low, like 0.01) gives more curves like you describe I think. However, this has a lot of sideeffects (flippers/rubbers need to be retweaked, etc). Not sure if this ever can be made to be playing naturally, but seems an interesting way of to investigate.



#144 toxie

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 11:28 AM

Just my two cents: switching to dx12 would mean to drop support of all windows version but windows 10. A lot of users are still using WinXP or Win7 on their cabs and we won't get that much better results. Maybe we should drop WinXP support and switch to dx10 in the future.

 

Then we could also rather go directly to 11.1 which in addition drops Vista support, but Vista was somehow shitty anyhow.



#145 fuzzel

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 12:08 PM

Whatever version of dx we choose it will be another big change to the engine. The changes from dx10 to dx11 weren't that big but from dx9 to dx10 they were

#146 hanzoverfist

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 12:47 PM

All this DX10, 11,12... etc.. is a lot of tail chasing.. vpx could use other needed tools far more than a yet another graphics engine,  it needs above all to go from a 2d based modeler to a 3D based modeler, better selection mechanism, improved layering, and grouping / group selections...built-in DMD or at least a DLL rather than COM to increase performance,  these are far more important than a new engine for software that has just been refitted anyway.   Those are my two bits..


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#147 unclewilly

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 01:53 PM

+1 on that.
Rather than a dx jump, I'd rather see a switch to all 3d. Dynamic lighting. Built in back box monitor support and built in dll support for pinmame and ultradmd.

But as always, I'm happy with any development to the software

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#148 sliderpoint

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 02:39 PM

So I realize this could be just me that has remapped the keys like this, but because I use my arrow keys for flippers and magna save, I can't change the settings of the original camera mode features because they are mapped to flipper and magna save features and the arrow keys are now mapped to the camera panning.

 

Would it be possible to add a section to the preferences>Keys specifically for the panning keys so I can change them to work with my setup?

 

Edit:  also would it be possible to add a key that would reset the view back to it's original position as well (for pan/zoom)?

 

 

 

Could we just use one of the other keys (like left/right tilt, etc) for the navigation? Would that be better?

 

 

navigation of the panning? or Navigation of the view settings?  The fix for 'me' would either be ability to remap either sets of keys or break them out into 2 separate "modes" (one to change view/light settings and one to pan around the table).  Maybe like press "shift" when opening Camera/light mode to get the panning features instead.



#149 hanzoverfist

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 03:12 PM

 

 

Congrats Hanz on your new promotion. It sounds like you speak the same language and have similar skills as Toxie and Fuzzel. Is this true? Do you plan on assisting those guys with VP10 development?

I will let toxie answer this one..

 

 

If you have some other cool ideas.. Sure..

In the beginning we usually work with patches with new devs until we think we can let them dig on their own into the VP source (just to avoid trouble and errors in this (still) messy, stone-old, but also awesome ;) sourcebase)..

 

The current arrangement we have works for me.. ITHINK it works for you guys too..  :console:


Edited by hanzoverfist, 10 April 2017 - 03:12 PM.

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#150 wrd1972

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 03:36 PM

Did someone say dynamic lighting? Oh please make this happen somehow.  :)

I know I could produce table much faster since lighting and hacks consume so much of an authors time.


Edited by wrd1972, 10 April 2017 - 03:37 PM.

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#151 toxie

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 03:43 PM

But then you also have way less artistic control. The engine will calculate the lighting (of course also using some approximations like all engines do), and then that's it. Just saying.  ;)

(Don't get me wrong, i'm all for dynamic lighting)


Edited by toxie, 10 April 2017 - 03:44 PM.


#152 unclewilly

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 03:51 PM

I'm ok with that if it means i can stop faking shadows on the playfield and objects.
Wouldn't that allow for in game sliders for ambiemt and light object intensity

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#153 wrd1972

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 03:57 PM

But then you also have way less artistic control. The engine will calculate the lighting (of course also using some approximations like all engines do), and then that's it. Just saying.  ;)

(Don't get me wrong, i'm all for dynamic lighting)

Surely there would be intensity etc. tweaks for each individual light. Could there also be NON-engine controlled lights to compliment the dynamic process if needed?


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#154 fuzzel

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 05:03 PM

rev3031 is up:

 

- fix camera calculation in fullscreen mode

- add hotkey for toggling between table and backdrop view in the editor (space)
- in Camera/Light mode (F6) press the start game key (default is 1) to reset the camera and all backdrop settings (inclination, layback...)
 



#155 hanzoverfist

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 05:41 PM

But then you also have way less artistic control. The engine will calculate the lighting (of course also using some approximations like all engines do), and then that's it. Just saying.  ;)

(Don't get me wrong, i'm all for dynamic lighting)

 

Can't agree more... the problem today with letting the card do everything.. everything looks the same...


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#156 bent98

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 05:59 PM

Whether its migrating to DX 11 or upgrading the architecture to support dynamic lighting it doesn't matter to me, as long as we get rid of those God awful jaggies!!

 

Thanks to the dev team for all their hard work.



#157 Ben Logan

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 07:39 PM

I'm totally blown away by VP developers' artistry with lighting. That said, dynamic lighting on the Zaccaria app for iOS looks pretty amazing, and almost as good on the Steam version. It would be awesome to have both options at some point (if that's possible). 



#158 Gornkleschnitzer

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 02:34 AM

Platform question.  What are the chances of ever getting VPX ported to Linux?  I'm able to get it started on wine (a sort of emulation layer for running Windows sofware) but can't get input to work.  There is plenty of good software for Linux these days, but it is sorely lacking in the pinball simulation department.



#159 jpsalas

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 05:55 AM

Platform question.  What are the chances of ever getting VPX ported to Linux?  I'm able to get it started on wine (a sort of emulation layer for running Windows sofware) but can't get input to work.  There is plenty of good software for Linux these days, but it is sorely lacking in the pinball simulation department.

 

I think I can answer that for fuzzel and toxie, and the answer is no. VP is based on vbscript and directx and both are Windows things. Actually VP is the only reason why I still use windows at home :)


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#160 fripounet

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 07:39 AM

" VP is based on vbscript and directx and both are Windows things. Actually VP is the only reason why I still use windows at home :)"

 

 

OpenGL could have been used.....