3 votes
Enthusiast
Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:53 PM
mjr...
Where would be the best place to hook up additional low power LED RGB lights, I've picked up the groovygamergear Helio9 High-Output RGB modules to go with their push buttons, but I was planning on using those for all the buttons on my cab beyond 4 flipper buttons. Like the coin-up and start and launch buttons.
Pinball Wizard
Posted 05 February 2016 - 10:17 PM
Where would be the best place to hook up additional low power LED RGB lights, I've picked up the groovygamergear Helio9 High-Output RGB modules to go with their push buttons, but I was planning on using those for all the buttons on my cab beyond 4 flipper buttons. Like the coin-up and start and launch buttons.
Let's see... Okay, those say they take 55mA per color channel, and they're common-anode, so that gives you lots of options.
- You could connect them to the flasher outputs on the main board if you're not already going to use those for flashers.
- You could also connect them to the flipper button/small LED outputs on the main board, although if you're also using flipper buttons, you'll only have one RGB channel to spare on those, so that'll only give you one extra button.
- Finally, you could connect these to power board outputs. The power board outputs have way more power handling than you need for these, but you'll probably have plenty of available outputs if you're including a power board, so might as well use them for these.
Two notes!
First, if you're going to connect these devices to the flipper button LED outputs on the main board, use a 680-ohm resistor for R5. That will set the current limit on the flipper button outputs to about 55mA as required. The PWM chips can handle 80mA per channel according to the data sheet, so 55mA should be well within the allowed range. I've read that those chips can get hot if you use them at higher currents like this - shouldn't do any harm, but just so you're aware.
Second, these are full RGB devices, so you're going to have to do some custom work in your DOF configuration to get the full benefit out of them for the miscellaneous buttons (Start, Launch, Exit, Coin, etc). The default DOF config thinks of all of those as monochrome lights. You'll have to add custom handling if you want to set custom colors. If you don't plan to take full advantage of their full color capability, you might want to substitute some plain white LEDs - look for "555" bulb LED replacements, since that's the type of bulb that fits in the standard pinball pushbutton assembly. Those should have similar power level needs as these RGBs, but you'll only have to use one output channel on the controller boards for each button if you use monochrome bulbs. DOF *does* have support for full RGB coloring for the flipper and magnasave buttons, so these RGB bulbs are a great choice for those.
Edited by mjr, 05 February 2016 - 10:18 PM.
Enthusiast
Posted 06 February 2016 - 04:47 PM
mjr...
Thanks for the detailed response. I clearly have some more learning to do as most of that was well over my head, and although I'm quite capable of soldering components onto a board, I may be beyond my skills to actually get this all working 
. Sounds like my best bet will be to get the 4 flipper buttons working from the main board's flipper button LED outputs. Not sure what the R5 is to be honest, but I believe I will need 4 680-ohm resistors, maybe an LEDWiz would be easier... not as much fun though
Pinball Wizard
Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:16 PM
Not sure what the R5 is to be honest, but I believe I will need 4 680-ohm resistors
Sorry, my explanation was awfully unclear - I had my nerd blinders on and was acting like everyone has been as immersed in the schematics as I've been over the past couple of months.
"R5" is just label/ID for one particular resistor on the main board, so what I meant was just that you should use a 680 ohm resistor for this one particular component when you build the board. For most of the components, you just plug in the component shown on the schematic, but R5 is special because you might need to customize the resistor size you select depending on how you're going to use the board. I'll also put this in the build guide when I write that, but it's worth mentioning here too.
R5's function is that it sets the current limit for ALL 16 of the flipper button/small LED outputs. Unlike the LedWiz, these 16 outputs are special "current limited" outputs, which means that they automatically throttle the output current to a particular upper limit. That means you *don't* need any external resistors on each LED, as you would with an LedWiz. (For your Helio9 LEDs, it looks like they already have the resistors built in, so I don't even think you need additional resistors with an LedWiz for those particular lamps. But most plain LEDs do require current-limiting resistors with an LedWiz, one resistor per LED.)
The current limiter is just a nice built-in feature of the PWM chips the boards use. "R5" is the resistor that selects the limit - there's a simple formula that you use to figure the resistance value (in ohms) for R5:
R5 = 39.06 / (desired current limit in Amps)
So for your lamps, you want a 55mA limit, which is 0.055A, so R5 = 710 ohms. The nearest standard size is 680 ohms, which translates to a 57mA limit - close enough.
The default value for R5 shown on the schematic is for 20mA LEDs, which I figured is the most common size for flipper button lighting. The data sheet for the PWM chips puts the maximum current per output at 80mA, but I'd recommend being more conservative than that and staying below 60mA, mostly because I've read reports from Arduino people that the chips get noticeably hot when you run them at higher currents. (In my testing with 20-30mA limits, the chips stay perfectly cool.) Your 55mA Helios9 lights should be well within the limits.
Edited by mjr, 06 February 2016 - 07:23 PM.
Enthusiast
Posted 07 February 2016 - 07:40 AM
Edited by mrarcade, 07 February 2016 - 08:12 AM.
Enthusiast
Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:54 PM
Not sure what the R5 is to be honest, but I believe I will need 4 680-ohm resistors
Sorry, my explanation was awfully unclear - I had my nerd blinders on and was acting like everyone has been as immersed in the schematics as I've been over the past couple of months....
Holy smokes I think I understood all that Alright, so when I place an order for my parts I need to add that 680-ohm resistor so I can use the buttons I bought... no sense in making things easy on myself
Pinball Wizard
Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:07 AM
I have been away for a while and look at what I am missing. Have I missed the order window? Finally getting geared up for my second build... I already have a kl25z
I'm just about to get the order in, so you're in luck - let me know what you need.
Enthusiast
Posted 09 February 2016 - 04:33 AM
mjr, I tried to send a personal message, but it said you couldn;t receive...
Time has been scarce for a long time. I finally found a 40" 1080p 120hz monitor that is listed as 20.5" without base. It "should" fit in my pinball cabinet without a decase.
I am going to get going on this finally.
Ever the frugal guy, I need to ask some questions that I am pretty sure you can answer easily.
I will start with just nudge and button inputs again. My goal is to work towards 6-10 feedback relays, a 3-4 chime asy, a ringer, a bell, a shaker motor, and at least 4-5 led flashers. If that all fits I might want to add a fan and beacon lights.
What will your boards cost. Approximately how much will necessary components cost?
Basically, will it be cheaper to buy ledwiz?
I am not afraid to solder and assemble, I enjoy it. My mantra to my wife is that I will build this as cheap as I can without sacrificing important things.
Huge thank you again for all you do for the VP community!
Pinball Wizard
Posted 09 February 2016 - 06:09 AM
Ever the frugal guy, I need to ask some questions that I am pretty sure you can answer easily.
I will start with just nudge and button inputs again. My goal is to work towards 6-10 feedback relays, a 3-4 chime asy, a ringer, a bell, a shaker motor, and at least 4-5 led flashers. If that all fits I might want to add a fan and beacon lights.
What will your boards cost. Approximately how much will necessary components cost?
Basically, will it be cheaper to buy ledwiz?
With that complement of outputs, the LedWiz might indeed be cheaper overall. The expansion boards are kind of overkill for your setup in terms of outputs - more flexible in the long run, to be sure, but the up-front cost might be a little higher. The LedWiz has enough outputs (32) for your whole projected setup, and it should be able to handle your flashers directly (with no additional boosters/amps). You'll need some kind of booster for everything else, though. With the exception of the shaker, everything you have in mind is just on/off (not intensity-controlled like the flashers), so you could use one of those Chinese relay boards (the LedWiz switches the relay, the relay switches the device). I'm not wild about those because of the slight switching delay and noise, but lots of people use them and don't seem to have any complaints. So with the LedWiz, you'd probably be in for about $50 for the LedWiz itself and maybe another $25 for a couple of relay boards.
If you use my boards, there are lots of different possibilities. If you're not building any feedback initially, you could start with just the KL25Z, no expansion boards at all. That thing is only $15 and will give you the nudge and button input, with the option to add a plunger sensor in the future if you want. And you might as well start there anyway, even if you end up with the LedWiz, since the LedWiz doesn't help with any of those functions - you need some kind of input device, and the KL25Z is by far the cheapest option there. (Other than the hacks involving repurposing existing equipment, anyway. E.g., button input with a hacked USB keyboard, nudge with an Xbox controller. If you can salvage stuff you already own, that's practically free - just solder and miscellaneous supplies like that, plus of course the value of your labor, which for hobby work I think the IRS requires us to value at $0/hour. )
When you get to the feedback devices, that's the point where you'll need to add some kind of external circuitry if you go the KL25Z route. You could get part of the way with hand-building the MOSFET booster circuits in the build guide, which are fairly cheap (maybe $2/channel). The problem (and the motivation for the expansion boards) is that the KL25Z has the pitifully small set of 10 PWM outputs, which isn't enough to fill out the 5xRGB flashers. So let's say you want to add flashers first. At that point you can add the main board - that gives you the 15 PWM flasher outputs plus one more for the strobe, with on-board boosters that'll drive the LEDs. It also has another 16 PWM un-boosted (max ~60mA) outputs meant for flipper button lighting, which you'd just leave unused. (It's only about $2 in wasted parts, and they'd be there if you ever changed your mind and decided even more blinking lights are cool after all.) Looking at my Mouser cart, the parts for the main board come to $50 (excluding the KL25Z), and you could save a few dollars by selectively omitting parts for subsystems you're not using (the TV-on stuff mostly). Plus a few dollars for the PCB itself if you get in on a group order at some point. (Don't feel pressured about making up your mind now Now NOW!!! just to get in on the first one. I'm sure there will be more.)
For the rest of the devices, you'd need to add the MOSFET power board. That's overkill for your needs - that gives you 32 more PWM outputs with high power handling (4A or so per outputs, enough for every device you mentioned). The PCB itself again runs a few dollars, and the Mouser cart comes to $43, but you might be able to save about $10 if you get the MOSFETs on eBay. You can also only install MOSFETs and resistors for the outputs you're actually using, so you could populate, say, 16 outputs and save maybe $15. (And of course you could add in the missing parts later if you need more outputs after all.)
The one other wrench I'll throw in is that you might even want the chime board at some point because of your real chime unit, but it's not at all a necessity - you could run those from the MOSFET board just fine. The only thing the chime board adds is the timed cut-off protection in case VP crashes and leaves your chime solenoid stuck on. But you could get a degree of protection just with a slow-blow fuse on each chime coil. I like the greater predictability of the electronic timer circuit and the fact that it's not expendable like a fuse (if the cut-off timer triggers, it just resets itself automatically as soon as you restart VP). But it's pretty massive overkill, really.
A dizzying array of options, I know! I hope this all makes some sense and actually helps. The bottom line is that the full setup with LedWiz would probably run you in the ballpark of $75, and the full setup with my boards would be more like $100. (Plus $15 for the KL25Z in either case, assuming you use that for the input side if you go with the LedWiz.)
Edited by mjr, 09 February 2016 - 06:17 AM.
Pinball Wizard
Posted 11 February 2016 - 02:17 AM
How much does it cost to get in on the group order for one of each board?
Exact pricing is TDB (have to get the order in with the factory to get the exact prices), but last time it came to about $2.75 per board, plus the postage cost to send to you, which will be about $5 for the whole set. So for one of each board, it should be about $13-$14.
Pinball Wizard
Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:47 PM
Okay, I got the order in with Elecrow (same place I used for the prototype batch). They were fairly quick last time; I expect they'll arrive here within 10 days or so. When I get them, I'll forward them on to everyone who requested one.
My cost per board for this order was $2.25. Postage from me to you should be $5 unless you have more than 6 boards, in which case it'll be $7 for the "small flat rate" box.
Given the PM restrictions here, I think the easiest way to work out payment and shipping details is regular email. If you requested a board, please drop me an email at [email protected]. No hurry, since it'll be a week or two before I'll have them in hand.
Elecrow produces these in multiples of 10, so I'll have a few extra boards of each type available if you weren't already on the list.
Enthusiast
Posted 12 February 2016 - 03:32 AM
Pinball Wizard
Posted 12 February 2016 - 03:48 AM
Awesome! I'll try and place an order tomorrow for myself of and anyone else interested in Canada. Download plans from your site... Upload them to the service... Anything special I need to do on the site? I've never order boards before.
Depends on where you're ordering them from. Some PCB makers accept the EAGLE .brd file directly. However, most of them want what they call Gerber files, which are a separate bunch of files that EAGLE can generate from the .brd file using its "CAM processor" function (CAM == Computer-Aided Manufacturing). They do it that way because each PCB maker has slightly different format requirements, so they use the CAM scripts to automate the conversion process. You should be able to find instructions on the ordering page on the PCB maker site you're using. If you're going with Elecrow, I'd be happy to send you the Gerbers I just generated for them. I can also generate new EAGLE files for other sites for you if you don't have EAGLE set up yourself.
Enthusiast
Posted 12 February 2016 - 04:02 AM
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