3889 replies to this topic

[fuzzel]

rev1843 is up :

 

- fix hit events for collections
- resize search/select dialog and add used material to the list

 

[FreeMason]

I want to create an original pinball game no emulation.  I like FP, but since it's not updated I do not want to use it. Can I do the same in VP10? I made models in Solid Works of ramps and toys now i am looking on how to use them to create a game!

[fuzzel]

Yes you can but building a table is different in VP than in FP. Anyway this is the wrong thread for those questions.

[FreeMason]

I am sorry you are right , did not mean to go this offtopic. But i asked here because i wondered how "ready" the alpha is and if i would use VP10 Alpha... but i'll ask somewhere else.

Edited by FreeMason, 12 March 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[Sindbad]

Just tested rev1843. The problem with the collection_Hit(idx) routine is gone.

 

 

Thanks guys !!!

[Slydog43]

fuzzel, I think that adding friction to the Edit->Select Element dialog might be helpful by finding elements that have 0 friction. (kinda like material).  Great work so far, thanks!

[ClarkKent]

I tested some tables with the new optimizations for more speed but 4xAA is still not possible with MB WIP.

 

Nevertheless I would absolutely suggest to replace FXAA with SMAA. The picture quality of SMAA is very very similar to 4xAA but needs very little performance (similar fps loss like in FXAA). FXAA on the other side is very blurry and therefore does not contribute to realism.

[grunger106]

What is the current way of dealing with AA? Via the app or the drivers?

[bent98]

I tested some tables with the new optimizations for more speed but 4xAA is still not possible with MB WIP.

 

Nevertheless I would absolutely suggest to replace FXAA with SMAA. The picture quality of SMAA is very very similar to 4xAA but needs very little performance (similar fps loss like in FXAA). FXAA on the other side is very blurry and therefore does not contribute to realism.

 

We should really refrain from using Monster Bash as a benchmark as the version UW posted wasnt even complete (Flashers missing etc.). If you want to benchmark FPS for AA I would suggest testing Body Dumps Bugs Bunny. 

 

As far as SMAA, is that something Toxie can implement? He mentioned it was a post processing technique so I am not sure what the level of effort would be, but I agree FXAA blurs the crap out of everything.

[Argo]

@bent98, you can use the most basic version of smaa with boulotaur's injector/sweetfx, along with other features.

[bent98]

Argo, I tired it out and to be honest, it wasn't that much better and it seems like FXAA needed to be enabled in the Nvidia Control panel for it to work properly.It surly didnt look as good as 4xx. I really feel this AA limitation should be resolved before VP 10 goes final. Perfect example is Bugs Bunny. The table is gorgeous but jaggies around the plastics really detract from it. Turn on 4x AA and 99% of the jaggies disappear but it wont be a viable option as its kills performance. Toxie explained the reason why driver based AA wont work currently:

 

The other options (CSAA, MSAA and whatever it is all called) currently do not work with VP, due to technical limitations on how we render things (main reason: the separation of static and dynamic table elements, but also other tiny details). This could all be solved, of course, but currently is not the focus of development for VP10.0.

 

 

My question is what entailed to separate static and dynamic table elements? Is it a massive level of effort to migrate? By doing that does it break the current tables being built in VP 10 beta? If it does, then why release something that will break compatibility in the next version.

 

I think the fundamental change to enable better visual fidelity in VP prior to it going final would benefit us all and especially cabinet users as we are using 39-42" monitors. 

Let me also say that this post is not a rant. I am very grateful to Toxie and Fuzzel for all their countless hours devoted to VP I am merely expressing my opinion.

[freneticamnesic]

fxaa on vp10 looks no worse than fxaa on vp9 and it was fine. performance is also fine.

4xaa looks better, as it did on vp921, but you're not going to get the same performance that you did on vp991. it was dx7 software that was made insanely fast thanks to dx9 optimizations. now it's dx9 software, we're in the same spot we were with vp921. performance is not an issue save for the highest quality video options, which is expected with any game. Lots of people are able to run 4xaa at 120+fps without stutter.

[bent98]

@Fren who ever said FXAA on VP was fine?  I'd like to know what video card your running that you can get 60+ fps consistently on 4xaa? Have you ran a high quality table like Bugs, i doubt your will get over 60 fps, I could image when UW completes Monster Bash with the toys being animated and flashers going off.  I would love to see the FPS with 4xAA setting.  It's not optimal way to go. Letting the GPU driver handle AA is highly efficient and doesn't require GTX Titan to get respectable frame rates. 

[ClarkKent]

SMAA is the best option in VP IMHO. Looks like 4xAA and provides the same performance as FXAA.

Just use SweetFX for postprocessing and turn off all AA methods in VP. Best alternative until SMAA is natively supported in VP.

[bent98]

@Clark, Unless I am doing something different then you, Sweetfx doesnt look anywhere near as good as 4xAA. Do Me a favor, just so we are comparing apples to apples. Take a screen shot of bugs bunny with 4AA on and then with your sweetfx settings. Post both screenshots.

[jimmyfingers]

@Clark, Unless I am doing something different then you, Sweetfx doesnt look anywhere near as good as 4xAA. Do Me a favor, just so we are comparing apples to apples. Take a screen shot of bugs bunny with 4AA on and then with your sweetfx settings. Post both screenshots.

I found the same thing as well and agree that VP 4xAA still looks much better than Sweetfx with SMAA.  I have tried with the posted / linked "Boulotaur Injector" as well and still noticed the same disparity over 4xAA's effectiveness.  However, certainly confirming some things would be useful as good smoothing but a limited performance hit would be great.  The SweetFX_settings.txt file would be very useful to see / copy as well to even better try and reproduce / verify from anyone getting results they feel are as good as 4xAA.    

[freneticamnesic]

@Fren who ever said FXAA on VP was fine?  I'd like to know what video card your running that you can get 60+ fps consistently on 4xaa? Have you ran a high quality table like Bugs, i doubt your will get over 60 fps, I could image when UW completes Monster Bash with the toys being animated and flashers going off.  I would love to see the FPS with 4xAA setting.  It's not optimal way to go. Letting the GPU driver handle AA is highly efficient and doesn't require GTX Titan to get respectable frame rates. 

 

I've never played a high quality table, ever. I've never made one, never played one, and just hang out in the vp10 beta thread to pick on people.

 

And the people who have tested my tables and reported higher than 120fps with 4xaa enabled? They must either blowing smoke up my _ or not playing a high quality table.

 

If I sound offended, it's because I am. 

and I said fxaa was fine, cause I play it. I haven't heard a complaint - except that 4xaa is smoother, which.... should be obvious, since it is more graphically intensive.

[bent98]

@Fren Can we please not turn this into a flame war. Have I said your tables were not High Quality? I merely stated Bugs Bunny is a high quality table and right now at least on my system is the most fps intensive. I also stated that since people are using Monster bash  test table to benchmark, they should not because it wasn't finished.  That's why I recommended Bugs as a benchmark. That 's great that your table plays at 120fps but your tables are not the only ones being made. Last time I checked there were other authors making tables. The point of this thread is to provide feedback to the developers about VP beta. 

 

Bottom line is 4Axx like quality is what we should be striving for. Goal is to have the driver to handle to AA and not have to apply post processing effects which will minimally impact performance.

Edited by bent98, 13 March 2015 - 09:06 PM.

[freneticamnesic]

@Fren Can we please not turn this into a flame war. Have I said your tables were not High Quality? I merely stated Bugs Bunny is a high quality table and right now at least on my system is the most fps intensive. I also stated that since people are using Monster bash  test table to benchmark, they should not because it wasn't finished.  That's why I recommended Bugs as a benchmark. That 's great that your table plays at 120fps but your tables are not the only ones being made. Last time I checked there were other authors making tables. The point of this thread is to provide feedback to the developers about VP beta not take things personal.

 

Bottom line is 4Axx like quality is what we should be striving for. Goal is to have the driver to handle to AA and not have to apply post processing effects which will minimally impact performance.

 

MB is not ready and was done the same way (I assume) bugs was done, and the same way Verne's World was done. That is, they were converted from VP9. I believe that is the reason for the performance issues on those tables. The two tables I have done from scratch in VP10 have had the best performance while, in my opinion, being much more complex than Verne's World ever was visually. 

 

The point is, I don't believe the AA issues you pointed out are a problem. I'm a passive aggressive a-hole, so I apologize for that. I don't believe Bugs Bunny is doing anything more complicated than other tables, so if that table (and MB, and VW) is slow and others are not, I truly believe it's because it was a direct conversion from VP9. When I finally made VW in VP10 I was severely disappointed in what I perceived to be the poor performance of VP10 (I couldn't run any AA without getting sub-60 fps) but once I made Sharkey's, from scratch, in VP10 I saw a huge performance increase.

 

4xaa doesn't work well on my system, (vp9 4xaa works great) - it says I have 70+ fps but there's stutter. I don't trust I'll see much improvement. fxaa works fantastic on my system, though, and I don't see the jaggies as an issue like you pointed out. Since this is visual, you can't see it with my eyes and I can't see it with your eyes, but I don't perceive it to be a problem, it looks the same as vp9 and I thought vp9 looked great with fxaa. True, 4xaa is ideal, but as games advance, what was high level last year is now even higher and the performance to achieve that is only a graphics card purchase away...

 

I get 600fps in vp9, and 120 in vp10 on fxaa - both are playable but when I'm FPS watching I miss out on all the other great improvements that are causing the lower FPS.

 

Anyways, no flaming intended, but I feel that I've spent as much time working with and playing VP10 as anyone, so asking if I have played high quality tables is a bit of a stab.

[bent98]

It wasn't meant to be a stab at you. Trust me. I enjoy your tables. The point you brought up about native vp 10 vs vp 9 port is interesting. Not sure what would cause the slow downs and should be investigated further .To your comment about needing a better video card in vp 10, this is true and that's why it's more important to implement a driver based AA that will minimize performance hit as much as possible. I hope Toxie can chime in,

Edited by bent98, 13 March 2015 - 10:15 PM.