4027 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

Ok, you are right in that it is possible to put WAV to the backglass. But, currently, if 7.1 mode is enabled. You loose what I can describe as maybe 50% of its volume compared to 2-channel.

 

Yes, in your set up, i can see that.
That particular aspect  needs some fine tuning.

The volume is not "lost" per se, but going to a place that  for you does not exist.
I am curious to see if those 7.1 tweaks maybe address that.

If you are curious, it needs a fallback, for lack of a better word.
If channels < 3 then use only channels 0 and 2

If you look at those alternate ogg's you will see that i kind of danced around that, but ultimately VPX needs to do the dancing, because
a table author can not do that dance in wav format (nor should he/she have to)

 

 

 

I don't see why you would want something that needs to be tuned to a location if it is already put into the backglass.

Because the backglass is capable of 3D

Either by control of content fed to it based on it's encoding, or the user/author overriding that.

I wont argue that the UI does not need more work, cause it does, as right now it is kind of left to the user to figure it out for themselves

not to mention, the slider routines need a revamping, they do not appear to be very logarithmic or something. 

 

 

 

For the OGG files. Sure, they now play in the backglass, just like what you told me they would. But, they too have issues. Seems all sounds, after being played has some kind of vibrato to them as they fade. It doesn't sound great to be honest. But, their volume was ok, being set to a very low value   Obviously needs some work there.

 

That is probably not VPX, export the bells play one in media player, if they sound the same to you, that's just what they sounded like when recorded with microphones

[njk70]

I've heard it reported people seeing differences between "default device" and explicitly picking the realtek (or whatever) driver. I don't really see how that could happen but I've certainly had my fair cases of windows audio being all wonky and getting fixed by different oddities. When I started my ROM sounds were all going to center channel and I had to use EqualizerAPO to direct them to left/right. I don't have to do that any more. Why? Who the hell knows. 

 

I'm not sure how we will make everyone happy with surround sound samples. But I'm going to focus on .WAV file behavior for the moment. I'll probably need to look at Ogg file samples after as I don't quite know what they will do in the ssf enhanced mode as I didn't test that code path because I was confused.

[wiesshund]

 

 

I've heard it reported people seeing differences between "default device"

 

Windows can do dumb things and sometimes have dumb ideas about "default device"

If PC has 1 audio device, it can not screw too much up
If it has several though, yea it can do dumb things some times.

On day, like none of my ROMs had any sound and i could not figure out what the hell happened, because they were fine
then discovered Xenon moaning on the phone
windows had decided to play games.

 

for pinmame you have no choice but to directly slap windows, but for vpx, at least you can prevent windows from poking its finger into things.

 

 

 

When I started my ROM sounds were all going to center channel and I had to use EqualizerAPO to direct them to left/right. I don't have to do that any more. Why? Who the hell knows.

 

Sort of does not surprise me exactly.
I had an older PC that decided that mono sounds went to center channel, if it was set to 5.1

MAME games that only had mono sound all came out the center channel.
And the damned drivers did not have any setting to change that.

At some point, either a mame update or driver update changed that and i didnt have to keep flipping the speaker setup around any more.

 

 

 

 I'll probably need to look at Ogg file samples after as I don't quite know what they will do in the ssf enhanced mode as I didn't test that code path because I was confused

 

Well, if you could cure the ungodly preamp gain they seem to get, that would be really great.

Also, if you could find some way that when an OGG (Or a WAV for that matter) only contains 2 channels( 0 and 1), it means Stereo and not DDS out of channels 0 and 1

with a bunch of empty channels.

 

One annoying thing VPX currently does in regards to the backbox is, if you give it a 2 channel sound, or a 1 channel sound, that is set to play from the backbox
and you have set the slider to the rear so it is not being artificially positioned, it continues to factor the sound based on the standard channel maps...
... for surround channels.

Which is really fine, IF i give it a 5.1 or 7.1 files, but is not super fine if i give it a 1 or 2 channel file, cause it sees it as FRONT, CENTER, and the rest all empty channels.

In Thalamas's case, it is not terribly fine at all, because he has no center channel so for him, it will play back either off center, or missing half.

 

And i highly imagine there are more people with his kind of audio setup in a cabinet than my design for audio setup in a cabinet.

 

Needs to be, if channels < 3 then render as standard 2 channel audio (where there is no such thing as center)

[njk70]

Forgive my ignorance while I work through this. Is it true that WAV files used in VPX were always single track (mono) samples? 

[wiesshund]

Forgive my ignorance while I work through this. Is it true that WAV files used in VPX were always single track (mono) samples? 

 

No, not true.

Though a good guideline to follow is

IF sound is to be directional, based on table object, sound should be mono

If sound is a non positional sound effect then stereo is fine.

 

That is for Table sounds only

For backglass, you should be able to make the sound as you see fit, as long as bass.dll can play it back

Edited by wiesshund, 16 March 2021 - 10:51 PM.

[njk70]

I meant for 10.6. Stereo/multi-track samples are new in 10.7?  Is that correct?  

[toxie]

You may try to contact DJRobX on this again, he knows all those details i think.

 

But in principle, stereo was always supported for all sound formats.

 

As for BASS vs WAV: I always planned to get rid of the WAV path for 10.7, but then i started to struggle to make the BASS path fully compatible so far.  :/

[wiesshund]

I meant for 10.6. Stereo/multi-track samples are new in 10.7?  Is that correct?  

oh, yes
10.6 does stereo fine, will not even load multi track types of audio
it will flat out tell you nope. didnt load that, but stereo it loads fine.

 

You just dont want to use stereo for a sound you want to assign to a 3d object, for the same reason you dont do it in most game engines

Hard to dynamically place a stereo sound in 3d space, when half the equation has already been pre decided

[njk70]

Well, then my solution is wrong.  The audio code is a little jumbled with attempts to do some different things and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around it (my C++ is rusty and Windows programming even rustier). I feel like two lines of code will fix the WAV sample placements.... just a matter of what and where. 

[wiesshund]

Well, then my solution is wrong.  The audio code is a little jumbled with attempts to do some different things and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around it (my C++ is rusty and Windows programming even rustier). I feel like two lines of code will fix the WAV sample placements.... just a matter of what and where. 

 

Not like i have a solution (doubtful)
But what were you trying to make it do?

[njk70]

The problem for the .wav file path appears to be that it lost track that it was marked to play in the backglass so goes through the normal path of playing through the playfield sound device. What looked to be the correct solution resulted in no sound at all. So I made a hackish solution that peeked at where the sound effect came from to determine if it was flagged backglass and then positioned it in 3D far forward and center and played it. Probably not the most correct solution but worked for single channel tracks. So I am going back and stepping through the code to try to understand what its doing and how its missing the path it needs to take.

[wiesshund]

The problem for the .wav file path appears to be that it lost track that it was marked to play in the backglass so goes through the normal path of playing through the playfield sound device. What looked to be the correct solution resulted in no sound at all. So I made a hackish solution that peeked at where the sound effect came from to determine if it was flagged backglass and then positioned it in 3D far forward and center and played it. Probably not the most correct solution but worked for single channel tracks. So I am going back and stepping through the code to try to understand what its doing and how its missing the path it needs to take.

 

not to derail you, but as most of these guys have no center channel plugged in
the far forward is good, but will the center cause it to play out the center? in which case they will not hear it.
or will it be summed up to the front left and front right channels?

 

that is one thing 10.7 does that is somewhat annoying.
i can push it full forward by setting the fade to full rear(rear of  cabinet) which throws it up into the backbox

but the center part, takes it literally, it will push it to the center and front right channels(if stereo wav or stereo ogg)

and if you try to pan it left, even a smidgeon, then it flops center and front left.
 

My way around that is what i did above with thalamus
I basically made 3 channel oggs (cause we cant load ac3 or multi channel wav) with a left and a right, and the center just silence
cause i know that doing that will make the sound appear where he expects it, but it really should not interpret things that way with a 2 channel stereo sound

I could understand it with a mono sound as many 7.1 systems will do the same thing with a mono sound in auto decoding mode, but not with a stereo sound.

And i am pretty sure that he has the center and LFE channels set to disabled in windows, so if it is reading that about the system, then it should really be dividing anything it thought was center between the left and right anyways, yes?

[njk70]

I don't really know. I will be happy to poke it if I can ever figure this out and I am really despairing of that right now. I am reverting all my changes now and starting over.

 

UPDATE: &^#@$#@# me... I had the music volume slider all the way to zero this entire time, hopefully changing that will help!

Edited by njk70, 17 March 2021 - 06:01 AM.

[njk70]

Ok the volume was obvious necessary, but it didn't help.  However.... thanks for discussing the center channel..... yup, thats where all the audio was going with the "obvious" backback fix.  I think its the case of windows putting a mono channel in the center speaker if windows is setup with 7.1..... I'll look into how to fix that.  Its enough to put me in a better mood and I am going quit while I am ahead and watch some TV.

[wiesshund]

Ok the volume was obvious necessary, but it didn't help.  However.... thanks for discussing the center channel..... yup, thats where all the audio was going with the "obvious" backback fix.  I think its the case of windows putting a mono channel in the center speaker if windows is setup with 7.1..... I'll look into how to fix that.  Its enough to put me in a better mood and I am going quit while I am ahead and watch some TV.

 Yea i am not sure there.

I mean i know what it does if you allow it to "auto decode" so to speak

but most apps that are not playing back something like a VOB or other video type tell windows "Hi, do this my way"
I am just not sure how.
Like media player, whether you want it to or not, will play back a mono file out left and right, same sound of course, no spatial enhancement or anything.

in fact you can not even get it to look at the center channel unless you feed it something that is specifically encoded with one.

ac3 aiff ogg multi channel wav etc

 

or maybe a simpler program is audacity

it plays everything in it either mono L/R or stereo L/R, even if it has 12 channel dolby atmos going on
 

[DJRobX]

I meant for 10.6. Stereo/multi-track samples are new in 10.7?  Is that correct?  

 

This is sort of a trick question. 

 

In 10.6 if you are using a 7.1 output mode, Windows seems to do an implicit conversion of samples to mono.   By Microsoft's documentation, samples played in 3D mode are not even supposed to work if they're not mono, but they seem to work anyway, which was pretty helpful for migrating existing tables to being able to use 3D positioning.   In stereo mode the left/right channels do work.    Multichannel ( greater than 2 channel ) WAV files were not supported.  

 

TBH I haven't had a lot of time to look at the behavioral differences in 10.7.   Toxie added a BASS audio path on top of the WAV path to enable mp3 support and some other things.   But because BASS doesn't seem capable of quite doing the same things as Microsoft's built in stuff (ball rolling doesn't sound right at all, for example), we have both code paths still.  BASS also seems to adhere to Microsoft's requirement that 3D sounds must be mono.

About the center channel:

We have found many sound drivers have a bug where Windows tries to output mono audio to the center channel, even if you have that speaker disabled.   Just installing EqualizerAPO often bypasses the incorrect driver behavior.  

Edited by DJRobX, 17 March 2021 - 09:39 AM.

[LynnInDenver]

We have found many sound drivers have a bug where Windows tries to output mono audio to the center channel, even if you have that speaker disabled.   Just installing EqualizerAPO often bypasses the incorrect driver behavior.

 

Unfortunately, in some cases they probably don't consider that an actual bug. In my experience, there aren't too many receivers that will acknowledge (or let you tell them) that you don't have a center channel speaker hooked up. The assumption appears to be that if you can afford to drop 4 or 6 speakers in the room, then you can probably afford to drop the 5th or 7th into the room as well. We're (more than) a little "off label", so that's part of why I'm expecting it's suddenly such a problem with the attempt to change the software's sound system.

[njk70]

@DJRobX,  if you use a stereo sample in 3D what does it do?  Use the left channel? Right? Combine? Or play both channels seperated in space somehow. 

 

I haven't looked at the BASS path at all. I added my pan/fade enhancers to the 7.1 SSF enhanced mode but don't really know if they help, hinder, or break there. I thought I was using that path all along, I didn't realize WAV files were still using a DirectSound path. I just happened to make the same changes on both.

 

Re: center channel. The weird thing is I had this same issue with ROM sounds a month or so ago and it just started working without EqualizerAPO so I am a little surprised its coming up in this context (i have fussed with drivers and version of pinmame so its possible one of those fixed it). I don't like relying on an external program to make this work right. I'm going to test if 10.6 has the same issue for me. I suppose a fix would be to turn a mono track sample into stereo by duplicating the track but can't say I have any idea how to do that in the code. I have a couple other ideas to try that may also fix it.

[darkknight]

have a question.

When loading a table in PinupPopper, the Visual Pinball Toolbar always pops up

Thank you

[wiesshund]

 

We have found many sound drivers have a bug where Windows tries to output mono audio to the center channel, even if you have that speaker disabled.   Just installing EqualizerAPO often bypasses the incorrect driver behavior.

 

Unfortunately, in some cases they probably don't consider that an actual bug. In my experience, there aren't too many receivers that will acknowledge (or let you tell them) that you don't have a center channel speaker hooked up. The assumption appears to be that if you can afford to drop 4 or 6 speakers in the room, then you can probably afford to drop the 5th or 7th into the room as well. We're (more than) a little "off label", so that's part of why I'm expecting it's suddenly such a problem with the attempt to change the software's sound system.

 

Probably not.

 

Considering that is not unique to VPX

 

I took some other games that are capable of 5.1 or 7.1

and i tried to create the unique situation of a cab like thalamas's

 

7.1 audio, with channels 2 and 8 cut out of the equation

 

Does not work

2 channel works
4 channel works

everything more than 4 channels assumes that you have all the channels, and does not much care that you said you turned two of them off.

 

Center channel stuff continued to be sent to the center regardless of it not being there
and of course, the result was all you heard was faint echoes of it in the other front channels.

Doing something to pan the sound 360 degrees resulted in a big gap.

 

Did not do movie playback any great favors either

 

Only thing that gave the expected results were to either give the channels back, or drop to 4 channel quad, or 2 channel
seems 3 channel surround, while valid, is not a valid thing for windows, but i mean, when is the last time you even saw a 3 channel setup?

 

But at least we can simply give it what it THINKS it wants, and slap it into submission, which is basically what i did in the 2nd set of test sounds thalamas tried
You think you want to see a 7.1 audio stream? ok fine there's a 7.1 stream (which also plays correct in 5.1, 4.0 and 2.0)

(In 10.7, not happening in 10.6)