318 replies to this topic

[vargaso1979]

Yo un i7 4790k y gtx1080,32 g ram, monitor 4k 60hz si no habilito vsync la bola tartamudea...pero es lógico si la bola va a mas de 60fps no hay sincronizacion con los 60hz del televisor...por eso el vsync te limita la velocidad de cuadros para que no haya theatering ni tartamudeo. No tengo tampoco muchas opciones activadas dentro de visual pinball.
¿Por que se produce el stuttering?
Quizas me tendria que comprar una grafica mejor?
¿Por que desaparece al activar Vsync?
Lo suyo es un monitor con 120hz 140hz

Edited by vargaso1979, 09 April 2020 - 10:43 PM.

[robertms]

All option enable in vpx except Space reflection.

 

@JLouLoulou Are you saying you're running 4xAA (brute force) with 4K?? If so it's an overkill, plus your system specs would not be capable of handling it efficiently. Ease up on the processing options and your perceived lag will improve.

 

@Rothbauwerw Just got a chance to try this and it plays brilliantly. Looks and sounds fantastic too, many thanks to all involved for your relentless pursuit of perfection 

[bord]

 

@Rothbauwerw : So, I have a question for you. These tables all seems to have "rothfozzy"

 

Just for everyone convenience - if you like 2.5 - this is tables that has "rothfozzy" set at 8.5.

 

Austin Powers (Stern 2001).vbs
Cactus Jacks (Gottlieb 1991)v.95.vbs
Dungeons&Dragons (Bally 1987) v1.2.0.vbs
Genie (Gottlieb 1979).vbs
Kiss (Bally 1979).vbs
Lost World (Bally 1978).vbs
Medieval Madness Skitso mod 1.1.vbs
Mystery Castle (Alvin G 1993) - v1.0.1.vbs
Speakeasy (Playmatic 1977).vbs
Star Light (Williams 1984).vbs
Stellar Airship (Geiger 1979).vbs
Stingray (Stern 1977).vbs
Theatre of Magic (Bally 1995) 2.0.vbs
TOTAN4k 1.3.vbs
Truck Stop (Bally 1988) - V1.0.0.vbs
Twilight Zone Skitso mod 2.05.vbs

 

Star Light, plays for me like no other. And I don't understand why I get that feeling - do you ?

 

Update : of course we can mode this thread. Seems I posted almost at the same time as Loafer.

 

I didn't realize all those table had the flipper code added to them!  Maybe on Star Light and some of the other tables of that era, the extra ramp up feels more natural.

 

Also with flipper code: Space Shuttle and Capt. Card.

[JLouLoulou]

All option enable in vpx except Space reflection.

 
@JLouLoulou Are you saying you're running 4xAA (brute force) with 4K?? If so it's an overkill, plus your system specs would not be capable of handling it efficiently. Ease up on the processing options and your perceived lag will improve.
 
@Rothbauwerw Just got a chance to try this and it plays brilliantly. Looks and sounds fantastic too, many thanks to all involved for your relentless pursuit of perfection 

No I never use 4xSSAA ( vpx dsr )

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@JLouLoulou: Your I5-4460 may be too slow for 4K and a demanding table. Looks like that runs at max 3.4 GHz. I have seen tables stutter at 4.5 GHz, but run with no stutter at 5.0 GHz. So processor speed can definitely make a difference.

it's false... VPX don't work like other game.. even with an i3 it work in 4K.
The ratio load CPU/GPU is totally different in vpx than other game.. Cpu load is at maximum 40/50%. And if you re read my post, i'm a 130fps without vsync, and often 140fps

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[JLouLoulou]

@Rothbauwerw : So, I have a question for you. These tables all seems to have "rothfozzy"
 
Just for everyone convenience - if you like 2.5 - this is tables that has "rothfozzy" set at 8.5.
 
Austin Powers (Stern 2001).vbs
Cactus Jacks (Gottlieb 1991)v.95.vbs
Dungeons&Dragons (Bally 1987) v1.2.0.vbs
Genie (Gottlieb 1979).vbs
Kiss (Bally 1979).vbs
Lost World (Bally 1978).vbs
Medieval Madness Skitso mod 1.1.vbs
Mystery Castle (Alvin G 1993) - v1.0.1.vbs
Speakeasy (Playmatic 1977).vbs
Star Light (Williams 1984).vbs
Stellar Airship (Geiger 1979).vbs
Stingray (Stern 1977).vbs
Theatre of Magic (Bally 1995) 2.0.vbs
TOTAN4k 1.3.vbs
Truck Stop (Bally 1988) - V1.0.0.vbs
Twilight Zone Skitso mod 2.05.vbs
 
Star Light, plays for me like no other. And I don't understand why I get that feeling - do you ?
 
Update : of course we can mode this thread. Seems I posted almost at the same time as Loafer.

 
I didn't realize all those table had the flipper code added to them!  Maybe on Star Light and some of the other tables of that era, the extra ramp up feels more natural.
 
I would definitely adjust TZ, TOTAN, MM, and Cactus Jack's if you like the feeling of 2.5 over 8.5.  The others I would recommend trying with and without the change to see what feels better for those tables.

Totan and TOM are the only two table with this script i have, i don't know there wera another table. So a friend who have some of them, confirm me it work better , but not at the same level, and for Medieval Madness he report me that it work worth with value at 2.5

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Edited by JLouLoulou, 10 April 2020 - 04:26 AM.

[JLouLoulou]

 

 

@Thalamus

 

If others try that setting and it seems to be better, I'd be ok with that adjustment.  It's value to overall play is minimal.  It's primarily there to help better simulate tap pass capabilities.  I have a feeling the timer is not running fast enough to change the coil-ramp up when it's suppose to.  It's something I can revisit as we look to build some of this stuff into the physics engine.  This may be one of those trade-off that currently "not worth it".

 

@JLouLoulou

 

I would still like you to test this change and see if it helps what you're experiencing. 

@Rothbauerw

 

Yep i test with  2.5 value.. it's a litlle better... but not as it coul'd be. I say that because i possibly find somthing. I make 4 test:

 

- First test: I disable vsync, and without, i'm at ~130fps... And whoaaaaa! the game is completely different! it work like it suppose to.. It's fast, it's very reactive, and i can say it's more difficult to make tips pass for example. In this situation i'm totaly satisfied. For the exemple of slinghsot corridor, if the ball roll fast to the flipper bats, i don't miss her as often as before and don't have extra wide angle. Accuracy is good etc etc. But in this situation, the ball have lot of stutter due to have 130fps on 60hz screen. it's horrible for my eyes

 

-Second test: enable frame limiter in vpx at 60fps...; uuuurkk... all the bad thiings of all worlds.. .Frame limiter not work great. It often around 90fps instead of 60fps.. VPX won't stay at 60fps. Flipper bats are "laggy", all stuturing, So;;; nothing work well

 

-Third test: Enable frame limiter in Nvidia with Nvidia inspector... it's better than VPX limiter, but stuttering too, a little less... "Laggy" flipper bats, little less so.

 

-Fourth test: Vsync enable in VPX with the new value 2.5. It's better tahn the default setup, but it's far from the free vsync test.. I have somme missed with the ball.. and i see the flipper bats not reactive at the moment when i push button, it's not like it could be.

 

The question is.. Why on a powerless PC, without vsync, at max 50/60 fps it work better my powerfull cab or desktop with vsync.. Like if VPX don't like to be limited and something gone wrong.. Like if some things not work at the same speed with the vsync. I don't know how to explain with my work.

 

Could there be a link with the timer?

 

So i will make a test with adaptative sync, but by the past, i have never good result with...

 

 

Informative post but it certainly seems to support either a VP issue or a configuration issue, rather than an issue with Roth's physics/script.  There is so much that could cause poor performance outside of VP.  What are your full powerful PC specs and would you mind posting a screenshot of your VP video preferences?  Are you running a 4K cab?  What is the make/model number of your playfield tv/monitor?  Are you running your TV/monitor in "PC MODE" (if it exists) or "Just Scan" if it exists or no configuration?  

 

Roth/Fleep: If you find this VP/physics subject stepping too far away from the TOM release (and thus sorta polluting the thread), we can create a separate thread to continue this subject separately.  I think all would understand.  I also think it's important to identify why some people have huge issues and some don't.  There is a mystery here but it's not a TOM mystery that's for sure.

 

JLouloulou: At worst, we can continue discussion via PM if you wish

 

Good suggestion to create new topic.

 

Some friends report me they come back to previous version of nfozzy physics due the "lags" issue. But the first feedback of them after new test with nvidia adaptiv sync and 2.5 value on "rothfozzy" version are better. Adaptiv sync seem to have more effect than value at 2.5

[ClarkKent]

 

Can't do that, I'm no table author. I'm mostly providing resources from my huge collection, also working on many scans to perfect them. Even the playfield you are using in your table seems to be from my collection - just checked, it is from my collection (I have a full high res scan in 600 dpi in original size).

 

 

 

Except that you're listed as the co-author on at least three tables (WCS, CV, STTNG)  and the go to guy for any physics related problems.  

 

You also have resources in your repository that I provided to you, so get off your high horse.

Knorr always list me, I never requested this. I‘m only providing resources and maybe some ideas or advices.

 

Maybe this is a cultural misunderstanding but this kind of discussion only happens between europeans and americans, no idea why.

 

I‘m not on any horse (except I own one) but my collection is huge and yes, there are some few resources from you, I appreciate that.

[JLouLoulou]

@Clarkkent and @Rothbauerw, please kiss you and stop your bitterness please kiss you and make us a beautifull baby    

 

We all work together, at different level. 

Edited by JLouLoulou, 10 April 2020 - 09:28 AM.

[Thalamus]

Please - Roth and Clark. You are both very valuable to our community. You have both different view on this flipper physics subject. But, it doesn't need to become a quarrel. Personally, I find that there are things from "RothFozzy" that I do love, but, also things from Clark that I love. Per example, the tip pass thing I mentioned earlier. The problem is, you can never merge these physics settings. We just all have to accept this as a fact and move on.

[ClarkKent]

I do not know what's going on here again but I'm only providing resources, nothing more to say here.

[ashleyb]

For information, on totan i don't play with nfozzy physics too. I even don't like it.

 
I'm going to set a few things straight right now:

• If you have constructive feedback, we're all ears.  I will not tolerate anymore, "I don't like it" BS.  It's a slap in the face.
• We're not here to serve your personal preferences.  If you don't like the table as-is, learn to modify the table to your liking.
• Have some respect for the amount of time authors invest on these tables.  You have no idea how much of our blood, sweat, and tear go into something like this.
• If you're truly having issues, we're happy to help troubleshoot.  But we will not tolerate trolling.

Too many here like to criticize without any detail of what isn't working.  KDS, Clark Kent, and JLouLoulou, I'm talking to you.  If you want to provide a specifc scenario with side-by-side video comparisons or detailed descriptions of what's happening that's not correct and what would be correct, then please share.  If you can't do that, then keep it to yourself.
 
Thank you Ben Logan.  I needed to hear some positive feedback.

Im no expert on how a real TOM plays, but @rothbauerw physics on this table are fantastic on my cab. Its amazing to me how he can calibrate a virtual pin table physics so closely to the real table. For me, in my opinion, this TOM release is magnificent in every aspect. Thanks again to all involved.

Edited by ashleyb, 10 April 2020 - 11:23 AM.

[rothbauerw]

@Thalamus - I agree with you, Clark makes some great contributions to the community.  I invest too much time in this hobby to let anyone off the hook for being insulting, ungrateful, or self entitled.  It sets a bad example for folks new to the community and we've lost too many great authors due to that kind of behavior.

 

@Clark Kent - This isn't an American/European issue, it's a common human courtesy issue.  @KDS and @JLouLoulou get it.  I've collaborated with many Europeans on projects and we get along great.

[JLouLoulou]

@rothbauerw ,

We make bunch of test with a friend with TOTAN, Medieval Madness. The same 5 test i describe in the topic, with 2 cab. Unfortunately, there only for TOM that vsync make problem. On all other table with "rothfozzy" script, there no difference with or without vsync. :/

So i have not the sensation i've played with "rothfozzy" script if i take TOM for reference. They are a lot more reactive. I watch the script, i see on the TOM script you put new stuff for the "Rothfozzy" physics.. So compare those table with TOM it's not a good deal. It cou'ld be cool to put the "Rothfozzy" TOM script onto TOTAN or MM. I don't know how to make script, i don't know if it just copy past coul'd work .

 

So for the moment, play with the Nvidia Adaptiv Sync is a good deal. I do not change the value 8.5 to 2.5. I stay on default. Play without sync it's very exciting i'm agree... But the tearing on a 60hz.. grrrr. Another friend play with a 100hz, and no need to play with sync, even he have more fps, few fps there are over 100 don't make much tearing.

 

So for those who have "latency" with 60hz screen, they need to play without sync and but with  tearing or at worst with Adapativ Sync ( don't know if AMD do this ).

 

It join you say before:

 

"As it's been explained to me, the VPX engine will only accept input once for each frame update.  For a 60Hz monitor, that could be up do a 17ms delay from button press to flipper reacting.  At 130Hz, you're cutting that number more than in half.

 

The bad news is I can't fix that.  The good news is the development team hopes to solve that with the new Unity engine.

 

Best thing I can do for now is minimize the impact of the coil ramp-up and reduce the start of stroke value from 8.5 to 2.5 which I will do in the next release"

Edited by JLouLoulou, 10 April 2020 - 03:01 PM.

[rothbauerw]

@JLouLoulou

 

I will send you a few test tables that have the same script for TOTAN and MM.  I will also send you a test TOM that I've made a few modifications to and let's see if that helps.

Edited by rothbauerw, 10 April 2020 - 02:01 PM.

[JLouLoulou]

Ok good. Happy to give my feedback

[ludovids]

Yo un i7 4790k y gtx1080,32 g ram, monitor 4k 60hz si no habilito vsync la bola tartamudea...pero es lógico si la bola va a mas de 60fps no hay sincronizacion con los 60hz del televisor...por eso el vsync te limita la velocidad de cuadros para que no haya theatering ni tartamudeo. No tengo tampoco muchas opciones activadas dentro de visual pinball.
¿Por que se produce el stuttering?
Quizas me tendria que comprar una grafica mejor?
¿Por que desaparece al activar Vsync?
Lo suyo es un monitor con 120hz 140hz

I think you hardware is fast enough, so stutter must be due to something else. Try changing the settings on the backglass to update less often, for whatever tables are causing you trouble. Also, try using PinAffinity, I you are not already.

[JLouLoulou]

Yo un i7 4790k y gtx1080,32 g ram, monitor 4k 60hz si no habilito vsync la bola tartamudea...pero es lógico si la bola va a mas de 60fps no hay sincronizacion con los 60hz del televisor...por eso el vsync te limita la velocidad de cuadros para que no haya theatering ni tartamudeo. No tengo tampoco muchas opciones activadas dentro de visual pinball.
¿Por que se produce el stuttering?
Quizas me tendria que comprar una grafica mejor?
¿Por que desaparece al activar Vsync?
Lo suyo es un monitor con 120hz 140hz

I think you are far over 120fps... I'm already over 120fps without vsync, and with a powerless PC than yours.. If you have 140/150 fps... You got tearing already with a 120hz screen.. But as say rothbauer, at 120hz, you divide by 2 the calculation even with vsync, than at 60hz with vsync. So you probably will never had problem to play with vsync. Put 0 in VPX, and "fast vsync" on NVIDIA Panel

Edited by JLouLoulou, 12 April 2020 - 10:44 AM.

[bigfoot53]

Awesome work !!!  Looks amazing ans plays great with the exception i don't have any background sound  i have flipper kicker pop etc sound but nothing else. I have set the sound up to 31  and still nothing.

Anyone have any ideas what i can do to fix this ?

 

Thanks

Bruce

[Fleep]

Awesome work !!!  Looks amazing ans plays great with the exception i don't have any background sound  i have flipper kicker pop etc sound but nothing else. I have set the sound up to 31  and still nothing.
Anyone have any ideas what i can do to fix this ?
 
Thanks
Bruce

During a game press F1 and ensure “Use Sound” is checked and restart the game.

Also use game’s sound at values lower than maximum or you will get crackles within game’s music.


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[bigfoot53]

Thanks for the tip but it was already set to use sound .