207 replies to this topic

[hauntfreaks]

I just looked and there are 2 flashes but , you're right no lighting.... 

 

here is a photo of the real PF , I'm guessing if there are lights there under the helmet....

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  bopplayfield_template.png   1.89MB   12 downloads

[wrd1972]

Okay here is a teaser pic for the next beta:

 

• More visual enhancements
• Shuttle ramp widened (easier to hit)
• kicker solenoid visuals added to head

[dark]

You've already put so much detail in but after looking at the side by side again I was thinking a nice touch would be if you added a small red light or two to reflect of the antlers from the bop pumpers like in the photo.

[Drybonz]

@Drybonz: easy to change: change the basecolor of material "pf lights" to 128,128,128 or something like that.

 

Thanks Flupper... 102 looks good to me... dark but still visible.  Nice that people will be able to easily change the whole set to their preference.

You've already put so much detail in but after looking at the side by side again I was thinking a nice touch would be if you added a small red light or two to reflect of the antlers from the bop pumpers like in the photo.

 

Hey Dark... you can get that effect by increasing the Halo Height of the red bumper lights to about 130 or so (decrease intensity to 8 if you want a more subtle effect).

Edited by Drybonz, 13 October 2016 - 01:29 AM.

[toxie]

I think dark had it right though, it's definitely the environment image/lighting that is causing the issue for DT views.  that it is a totally different looking table when in DT vs FS is an issue in my mind.  It's almost like the light source or image are fixed relative to room, and rotating the cabinet gives it different lighting effects, when what we are really doing is not rotating the cabinet in the room (environment), but changing our viewpoint of the table. the lighting on the table should not change because of that, maybe a little, but not that much.  Having to resort to totally separate images to get the same effect shouldn't be happening.  again imho

 

edit:  this definitely explains however why when I'm building tables they look way different on my laptop or desktop vs on my cab.

 

The environment should be properly rotated nowadays (as it was not at some point back then if i remember correctly).

 

But all glossy materials will behave differently when viewed from a different angle in general.

Just think about it: If you have for example a table with some kind of clearcoat, standing near a window, and you look at it from a distance, then you will see the reflection of the window (e.g. very bright on a sunny day). If you get near the table and look from above, then you will not see that part, but mainly the diffuse contribution of the material in that case.

The same happens for the VP table: One time you look from above (FS setup), so you will see a 'different part/reflection' of the environment map for glossy materials than when looking from the front (DT).

If you replace all materials with purely diffuse materials it should look the same for both views, as there you will always have the same lighting (view independent). So please test with only diffuse (no glossy, no clearcoat, etc, only diffuse), and if there are still differences, please PM me that table then.

 

Edited by toxie, 13 October 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[BorgDog]

Thanks for the explanation Toxie. Makes sense on the reflection of different parts of the map, and I guess maybe it's just the total contrast of light vs dark areas of the map in use that makes such a difference on this table.  

 

To look at it another way though, when I use a FS view it is on a cabinet and I'm not looking at it straight down, I'm looking at it standing at the end of the cabinet at an angle roughly equivalent to my DT view angle, but what I am presented with is what it would be if I were suspended from the ceiling directly above the cab.  Maybe I'm over thinking this, but I think it would be better to have the lighting set for a particular viewpoint, ie a person standing at the end of the cabinet, that would be independent of whether it is presented as DT or FS because the use case of those is different. It would also make it easier for table builders to get the look they want regardless of how the user sets their viewpoint.  Or maybe it's just the drugs for the head cold I'm fighting that are doing the talking 

[vampirolatino2]

Nice explanation!

[dark]

Well environment maps are great for glossy reflections and all the highlights and stuff they add to materials but it would be nice to just be able to add "environment lights" instead of maps to better control how the over all lighting works.  Currently all we can do is adjust the map, or scale/move around it around.  When working on NGG we had an issue come up with this where a major hot spot highlight was just beaming off the slam ramp, I think what we ended up doing was adjusting the inclination by a degree just to move the highlight off of that area.  Honestly I'm really happy with the inclusion of environment maps in VP as they've allowed us to make things look so much better and more realistic in conjunction with our materials and textures but it does have it's short falls.

 

Borg you have to think of environment lighting as the room lighting,  there's a few lights on in and around the room but it's still kinda dark, depending on your point of view and angle of the table in relation to the lights is what's going to determine where highlights land.  Like if you were to hold a mirror out flat facing up in a room and started to angle it one way or another you will see the room's light move around on it accordingly.  It makes good sense it's just not always flexible.  You're right the FS view is kind of like hovering directly over the table as if your a PAPA camera - which is exactly why I prefer slightly more inclination and not have the table fill the entire screen to give it some depth.  If you rotated a view with environment lighting all the way from a flat looking FS view to a view that resembled a DT view you'd see how the lighting moving around makes sense.  Toxie explained it really well really with the diagrams.

[unclewilly]

The lights are under the helmet

[Mark70]

Absolutely amazing work!

Thanks for sharing.

[wrd1972]

So regarding helmet lighting. I have been searching for images everywhere and this is the best I have found regarding the eyes and mouth lighting:

It appears to me (could be wrong) that these are the only three lights that light the face up. I believe the eyes lamps cast through the translucent face to light the brows and areas around the eye images. Also when referring to the service manual, it shows only these three lights.

 

I also dont believe there is any helmet or face GI lighting. I cant find it at the moment, but I recently found a pic of the underside of the helmet and there were no lights under it at all. I would assume that if there were helmet/face GI lighting, then this is where it would be.

 

Right now I am working on the eye lamps to cast light on the eye kickers and the eye images of the face.

 

If anyone has any additional knowledge of the face lighting, please let me know.

[BorgDog]

Well environment maps are great for glossy reflections and all the highlights and stuff they add to materials but it would be nice to just be able to add "environment lights" instead of maps to better control how the over all lighting works.  Currently all we can do is adjust the map, or scale/move around it around.  When working on NGG we had an issue come up with this where a major hot spot highlight was just beaming off the slam ramp, I think what we ended up doing was adjusting the inclination by a degree just to move the highlight off of that area.  Honestly I'm really happy with the inclusion of environment maps in VP as they've allowed us to make things look so much better and more realistic in conjunction with our materials and textures but it does have it's short falls.

 

Borg you have to think of environment lighting as the room lighting,  there's a few lights on in and around the room but it's still kinda dark, depending on your point of view and angle of the table in relation to the lights is what's going to determine where highlights land.  Like if you were to hold a mirror out flat facing up in a room and started to angle it one way or another you will see the room's light move around on it accordingly.  It makes good sense it's just not always flexible.  You're right the FS view is kind of like hovering directly over the table as if your a PAPA camera - which is exactly why I prefer slightly more inclination and not have the table fill the entire screen to give it some depth.  If you rotated a view with environment lighting all the way from a flat looking FS view to a view that resembled a DT view you'd see how the lighting moving around makes sense.  Toxie explained it really well really with the diagrams.

 

Sorry for the continued hijack of your thread Bill.

 

I agree that having environment maps in there adds a lot to how the tables look, and I understand what you are saying about room lighting, and I definitely have rotated a table in camera view and seen the lighting move. But I think some of what it is doing is not realistic, especially on the FS views because nobody ever looks at them that way unless watching the PAPA videos and their like.  But since we like diagrams I made one to show what I am talking about.  

 

So here I am standing at my cab.  Yes, I'm the Flash, don't tell anyone.  And I have the view of the FS playfield on my screen as shown.  But what VP is doing because of the inclination setting controlling the environment lighting is showing me Superman's view of the playfield, and while I am seriously jealous of superman's ability to fly what I really want vp to show me is the lighting as I would see it from standing at the cab, in fact I want it to always show me the lighting as if I was standing at the cab, not dependent on the inclination that is used to make the VP tables fit the screen.  DT views in this way, in my opinion, are actually much more realistic as far as that lighting goes.  My depth in the cab is provided by it actually being a cab and the back of the screen is further away from me, just like the real ones.  On em tables where the real playfield is parallel to the cabinet glass, that is also how I set my vp tables, on more modern tables more inclination is needed in vp to add the extra depth those machines have.

 

 

 

[gStAv]

haha *lol*

[Drybonz]

You can't see Ant-Man but he's in the table for a playfield level view.

[vampirolatino2]

lol this thread got monthy phytonish

[wrd1972]

Here at work, in a meeting, not concentrating on work and busted out when I saw that table view illustration.  Yep, im that guy not focusing on work and everyone just took notice.

[Umpa]

lol this thread got monthy phytonish

I'm a lumberjack!

[dark]

Time for a closer inspection:

[wrd1972]

There y'all go again. You guys are wrecking my productivity here.

[vampirolatino2]

lol you guys are crazy!