1488 replies to this topic

[Shockman]

There is still nothing convincing in the nudging for desktop use. If you have to ask what the problem is I will expect another complete cycle (and I'm talking about .7) with it the same.

[rothbauerw]

There is still nothing convincing in the nudging for desktop use. If you have to ask what the problem is I will expect another complete cycle (and I'm talking about .7) with it the same.

If I were volunteering my time to a hobby, I wouldn't touch this. One of the least gracious posts I've seen on these forums.

[gtxjoe]

Here is one of the previous discussions on nudge
https://www.vpforums...ic=37757&page=1

[toxie]

 

There is still nothing convincing in the nudging for desktop use. If you have to ask what the problem is I will expect another complete cycle (and I'm talking about .7) with it the same.

If I were volunteering my time to a hobby, I wouldn't touch this. One of the least gracious posts I've seen on these forums.

 

 

I'm used to Shockmans attitude by now. 

 

So did you try the legacy nudge behavior in the settings? Or the different additional nudge variants in the scripts folder? (rename one of the NudgePlugIn_XXX files to NudgePlugin.vbs)

[Shockman]

Of course I did. It was kind enough to give no nudging ability at all with my keyboard nor the Xbox 360 controller instead of the "unrealistic VP9 physics" that it promised.

I appreciate the motion and recoil, that was finally restored, even if it should only be the table moving and not the world, but the ball moves with the table so you can not use nudge for example to move the flipper toward the ball a bit when it's going down the middle but close to a flipper. I have always said you could tell me that only cab nudging is important and I would accept it. Till then I assume you have interest. I have not screwed with very unrealistic nudge times and I might get a hint of the table moving under the ball then, but I would not be able to use that. Nudge strength is not a matter of time but power anyway and my point is VP is the only pinball simulation I have played that can't that can't accomplish this. VP8 had it closest to right but then again the previous versions did as well.

 

You give me reason for hope though. Which plugin gives the best desktop nudging visually and physically in your opinion?

Edited by Shockman, 15 October 2019 - 12:27 AM.

[Shockman]

VP9 nudge physics are nowhere to be found outside of VP9. One single iteration. There was VP1, VP2, VP3, VP4, a few VP5s a couple of VP6s and VP8. All of these had the same nudging though refined. You know as well as I do what VPs legacy nudge physics are and that VP9s is the furthest from it. VP8 physics should be in the legacy labeled sub routine and VP9s in an obscure file.

Edited by Shockman, 15 October 2019 - 01:12 AM.

[toxie]

??? Okay.. That's the first time i hear that somebody liked VP8 nudging best..

Maybe i'll have a look at some point how that was implemented back then.. But i don't know if that behavior can be fully resurrected nowadays..

[jpsalas]

The only problem I see with the nudging in VPX is that I feel it only works if the ball is already in contact with an object. In theory you should be able to nudge and make an object (wall, rubber, flipper) move close to the ball so it actually hits it.

[Shockman]

Exactly jp' that was the case before VP9

 

Legacy is legacy, not an old favorite. As a matter of fact legacy often means obsolete in terms of the state of the art. It's just the opposite here. Legacy works, their code doesn't. They know that, but it works for Pauls' cabinet hardware so they don't care or are forbidden to correct this. I can only guess why. Maybe they tried to fix it (the correct code from VP10 source even was given to them) and it messed up the cabinet behavior. Just a guess. There is something very fishy here. It's simple code that has existed forever, never stopped working, but was still taken out of the program. 

 

Contrary to what was written above this has been pointed out since the start of VP9 and throughout a lot of VP10 builds. Especially when they say the version is wrapping up. We have been around and around. It's on the record.

 

VP8 and all the way back had nudging that did not simply have a motion add off a table element but worked correctly.

 

VP9 did not, VP10 .1 - .5 did not. My question is will VP10.6 ?????  Take JP's word for it and tell me to f**k off. That's fine. It just needs to be returned for us that does not buy (literally) into one of the cabs we gave up the feature for.

 

For Paul not to respectively demand that is very confusing.

Edited by Shockman, 15 October 2019 - 07:31 PM.

[toxie]

VP8 and all the way back had nudging that did not simply have a motion add off a table element but worked correctly.

 

I just double checked and looked at the implementation in VP8.1 (as this is the oldest source we got back then). And bad news Shockman, the implementation of the actual nudge in there is nearly 1:1 the same as the legacy mode in VP10 (and so also the same as in VP9).

So i think this is a side-effect of all the changed physics, not of the actual nudge.

[Carny_Priest]

Oh, snap! I see the conspiracy got to you too, @toxie!  

[Shockman]

VP10 does not have reverse directions so how can you compare both that and VP9 as the same?

 

We might be on to something though. VP9 had the directions reversed (0:1) and no recoil (0:1), a problem I don't have with VP10, but this "legacy" mode might have fixed that. But when I check that there is no response to nudge keys or the 360 controller. Not even an incorrect response. Nothing. When I uncheck it I get nice nudging except for the very important part JP and I brought up. It certainly does work properly in VP8. Will you check that?

 

Is this "legacy" mode really just a previous VirtuaPin hardware mode that has been replaced. Pretty arrogant of you to call anything VP10 legacy if that's the case.

 

Look you know just as well as I do that VP8 nudge simulates the table moving under the ball, and as JP said that is not what VP10 is doing. VP10 moves the table and ball (not nudging by any sense) VP10 seems to be trying for us desktop users to get away with a simple screen shake. I don't know if the table elements that make this work if there is already contact is a by product or something you were willing to implement.

 

Are you interested in VPX having better nudging or not? Do you even understand the importance of nudging in a pinball simulation?

 

I don't believe this is a side effect of anything. I'm surprised you would even mention that. But if it is and you are ok with that then you should have never touched the source of VP.

Edited by Shockman, 15 October 2019 - 10:11 PM.

[LynnInDenver]

But if it is and you are ok with that then you should have never touched the source of VP.

 

Unless you're capable, willing and able to step into that vacuum immediately by taking over development of Visual Pinball and dealing with every little request, please stow that attitude. We need everyone we can in the hobby, and an issue with breaking nudging in desktop mode, regardless of how it came about, is no reason to dump on someone who's taking their own free time to develop this software.

[Shockman]

Or undevelop?

[toxie]

Haha, Shockman, you never fail to surprise me.

 

So i'll still try to be constructive and tell you that no VP ever (at least) from VP8.1 onwards (as the older versions we don't have access to) moved the actual table. The table (or rather playfield) is static. It never moves. End of story.

That it seems to move on screen is simply a 2D effect, nothing more. So also the code in VP8.1 only ever moved the ball. Read the code, it's all there, check for yourself.

 

-> https://sourceforge....ath=/tags/vp8.1

(this is the original code as we received it, completely in its original state)

Search for "nudg" in all files. Read the snippets. It's not difficult to piece that together.

 

If you find something else, even better. Then point me to it, and i'll see what i can do.

Edited by toxie, 16 October 2019 - 08:24 AM.

[toxie]

Hmmm.. Wasn't there some gottlieb template table on the other forum? (found it: https://vpinball.com...b-em-template/)

Or undevelop?

 

VP 8.1 and numerous tables for it still exists, so simply pretend nobody ever touched any code and you're done.  (sorry couldn't resist )

[toxie]

Phew, that goes over my head. Scottywic sent me some stuff which i still have to look at in detail what it all does.

 

Otherwise JP would be the best candidate i guess to design something like that.

[jpsalas]

About nudging:

 

Here it is a small table for you to try:

 

 

The strength of the nudge in the script is set to 4, which is stronger than what we used to use in VP8 and older.

 

In VP8: nudge left and the ball will move to the left, the screen will shake, and the wall will hit the ball as it stands quite close to the ball.

If you nudge right the ball will shake, the screen will shake but nothing happens, since the ball is not hit by any close wall.

This VP8 nudge was very good for desktops but it was not good for cabinets as the screen and the ball shakes visually and the cabinet also moves, so it was kind of disturbing to watch.

 

In VP9: the ball will move as with "magic" it doesn't need to hit any wall. Even it will move upwards until the top. Any nudge will move the ball in any direction. That's why we needed to add a lot of code to the scripts to make it behave. Some people liked this nudge as you could save a strait ball to the drain just by nudging to a side. Magic!

 

In VP_physmod5: the screen shake is gone, and the ball moves visually in the direction you nudge and the wall will hit the ball if it is close enough. If the ball didn't hit anything then it goes back to its rest position, this is similar to the VP8 nudge. But in the table the nudge strength needs to be increased to about 20 so the ball moves enough to hit the wall in this test table, even if the visually shaking of the ball is quite strong.

 

In VPX: the screen shake is separated from the nudge, so it can be turned off, and that's good. The ball doesn't move either, as it did in VP8, VP9 and VP_physmod5, and that is even better. Good for desktops as they have a visual shake of the screen, and it is good for cabinets as they don't need any visual shake.

So if you turn off the screen shaking, then you'll see that a nudge will not move the ball at all (after the nudge the ball will move a little due to a friction, and that's good ) But the ball will not come close to the wall unless you increase the strength to about 20, just like in VP_physmod5. Then the wall will hit the ball, as a nudge it should be. And to me this nudge is perfect for desktop and for cabinets, better than the older versions.

 

But the problem I have with VPX is that a nudge higher then 6 will make the ball move as it has been hit by a baseball bat. So with a nudge of 6 the nudge feels good, but the ball needs to be really really close to a wall, almost touching the wall, so the nudge will work. Here is where the code could be enhanced, so you don't need a nudge of 20 to get the wall close enough to hit the ball. I don't need any visual movement of the ball, as in VP_physmod5, a simple screen shake is enough, and that's already in VPX.

 

To me the nudging in VPX could be fixed in two ways:

 

1- increase the distance that will qualify for a hit between a nudge and the object that's closer to the ball. That must be a kind of variable in the code. With this change, the tables will keep compatible with the values we have been using (from 2 to 6)

2- reduce the strength of the hit after the ball hits an object. This will break compatibility since we'll need to increase the nudge strength to about 20 to make it work.

 

JP

 

 

[jpsalas]

can you integrate a more complete blank table.
like that of fp but adapted to vpx. with counting system and bg ? (a mini template for beginner)

 

I guess you mean a template for an original modern style table. The problem with templates is that they become obsolete quite quickly. I gave up using templates a long time ago. And there are now too many different setups and other programs you may use for a DMD (db2s, UltraDMD, Pinup, or a build in VPX DMD made with reels, text objects or flashers, as I did in my latest originals). The scripts of every author are also different. Mine changes all the time, as new things are added to VPX, and also when I find better ways to do something. I think the best is to use any table as a template to learn from. Find one table you like and "dissect" that table, find how it works. And if you can't find how something works then ask the author of the table I'm sure he/she will help

Edited by jpsalas, 16 October 2019 - 11:05 AM.

[Thalamus]

Believe BorgDog provided some Gottlieb templates over at VPinball. But, well - once JP says something about table building, most people should just listen to his advice

 

https://vpinball.com...eb-em-template/