458 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

Unfortunately there is nothing i can tweak for AMD anymore.   :/

With depth buffer reads its all about whacky behavior with DirectX9  :/

 

Apart from that, here a new build https://github.com/v...runs/1512137120

with flipped modes (e.g. cyan/red instead of red/cyan), the desaturation option, and a contrast option.

 

Hmm, i wonder how other apps pull it off then?

Of course, i am only assuming BAM uses DX9, perhaps it does not?

Shame that changing the renderer to DX11 (Cause win7 does not have DX12), or OpenGL, or Vulkan is about as fun as pulling teeth from a fully conscious polar bear

[Gravy]

 

 

Do you still have the 3d glasses and able to run another test? I'd be interested to know if both lenses of the glasses black out when the glasses are rotated at 90 degrees to the landscape screen. LCD screens use polarising filters in the screens and unless they are circular polarised they will have issues when rotating the glasses. Linear polarising filters black out if another linear filter in a pair of 3d glasses for instance is rotated.

If they do go black when the glasses are rotated when tuned off then your rotation issue may be fixed by the possible solution I mentioned earlier.

 

 

Got a fresh battery, gave this a try, and it worked!

 

 

In the image, the 3D glasses are oriented as they would be with me wearing them and standing at the end of the cab. So they are oriented 90 degrees from how they are meant to be for watching TV, and you can see that the inner portion of each lens is black due to the polarization of the TV and each lens. The outer portion of each lens is resting on top of a piece of a plastic sandwich bag, oriented so that it cancels the polarization of the lens, allowing the TV image to be seen thru the lens.

 

Apparently, the way these glasses work then is they are passively linear polarized with an orientation that matches watching the TV from the normal landscape perspective, and actively linear polarized 90 degrees from the passive, in synch with the image (left or right) displayed on the TV.

 

@Gravy: What kind of polarising filter do I need to get to be able to give this a better test? I think I need a sheet of plastic with the correct polarising property that I can cut to fit the glasses. I will then be able to make a good comparison between this and anaglyph 3D.

 

From wikipedia:

In many applications it is possible to use a quarter-wave plate to produce circularly polarized light, but this is only possible for light of a limited range of wavelengths which is linearly polarized to start with.

 

RealD 3D glasses are circularly polarized, so they may consist of a linear polarizing layer followed by a quarter-wave plate. Just need to orient them so the linear polarization matches up with the TV, and I will hopefully get the effect I am looking for.

 

Awesome, I had a pretty good feeling that solution would work for your situation. I reckon your best bet is to just buy a regular plastic phone screen protector, rotate it into the correct position for best view, mark the rotation and then cut to fit and apply directly to the glasses lens. You may need to do a bit of testing, unsure if an air gap is needed or if they can simply be applied directly to the lens.

Funnily enough, the whole reason I know about this is due to a situation I came across at our local beach a few years ago. A company had installed a paid sunscreen dispenser which had an LCD screen for payment options, I discovered the screen went black when viewed with polarised sunglasses which was a bit of an issue considering it's location at the beach. So I went looking for a solution and got in touch with the company to let them know of both the issue and the solution. The owner called me back a few days later from Sydney and we had quite a good chat, I'm unsure if he ever implemented the solution as the screen was vandalised not too long after and the machine became dormant and eventually removed, perhaps the vandal was pissed that they couldn't see the screen, haha. You might also find that some very low end phone screens also suffer the same polarising issue and can be rectified simply by applying a screen protector.

I think I might mention this in a few other groups as it may help those with 4K LCD screens that have active glasses. I wonder if most of those setups generally use linear polarising.

[ludovids]

 

 

Placing the RealD 3D lenses in front of the active 3D glasses works, but as you can see above with the balloon in the right lens, there is bad ghosting. Also, lots of brightness is lost.

 

Don't think I will buy a plastic phone screen protector just for this. But if I get ahold of some screen protector material some other way, I will give it a try. On the other hand, it's cheap enough that I may as well just go ahead and give it a try...

 

Edited by ludovids, 28 November 2021 - 11:31 PM.

[Gravy]

 

Placing the RealD 3D lenses in front of the active 3D glasses works, but as you can see above with the balloon in the right lens, there is bad ghosting. Also, lots of brightness is lost.

 

Don't think I will buy a plastic phone screen protector just for this. But if I get ahold of some screen protector material some other way, I will give it a try. On the other hand, it's cheap enough that I may as well just go ahead and give it a try...

 

 

Real D 3D lenses are slightly tinted and also the circular polarisation of the Real D lenses may be making it even darker? A screen protector is clear, not tinted and can generally be found for under $2 delivered from ebay.

Unsure about the ghosting, does that also happen without the addition of the Real D lense if you view your screen in landscape orientation? It looks like your glasses are slightly out of sync or something, unless there is something about the polarisation which reduces ghosting on shutter glasses? Perhaps its a setting on your TV that is causing the image to persist on screen for slightly longer than it should, like if your glasses were shuttering at 50hz but your screen refresh is locked at 60hz maybe?

[ludovids]

I don't usually run with vsync enabled, so will give that a try. I think I saw the ghosting even without the RealD lenses, so hopefully vsync will help. Ordered some PET screen protectors.

Edited by ludovids, 29 November 2021 - 04:48 PM.

[toxie]

 

Unfortunately there is nothing i can tweak for AMD anymore.   :/

With depth buffer reads its all about whacky behavior with DirectX9  :/

 

Apart from that, here a new build https://github.com/v...runs/1512137120

with flipped modes (e.g. cyan/red instead of red/cyan), the desaturation option, and a contrast option.

 

Hmm, i wonder how other apps pull it off then?

Of course, i am only assuming BAM uses DX9, perhaps it does not?

Shame that changing the renderer to DX11 (Cause win7 does not have DX12), or OpenGL, or Vulkan is about as fun as pulling teeth from a fully conscious polar bear

 

Maybe i could look at how reshade does things? Cause there its using DX9 for DX9 apps AFAIR.. But i may be wrong..

 

Also: I screwed up contrast for the non-deghosting path, so i need to retweak that part..  :/

[toxie]

New build with the adapted contrast: https://github.com/v...runs/1514993193

[Gravy]

I don't usually run with vsync enabled, so will give that a try. I think I saw the ghosting even without the RealD lenses, so hopefully vsync will hope. Ordered some PET screen protectors.

What 3D mode are you running in VPX?


@toxie, thanks for the quick update.

[fripounet]

the gargamel table is the most representative table of the anaglyph.

the insertion of planes moving with the indiana table provides a striking effect , with space sound effects

 

many toy animations are to be made for all tables

Edited by fripounet, 29 November 2021 - 10:18 AM.

[wiesshund]

 

 

Unfortunately there is nothing i can tweak for AMD anymore.   :/

With depth buffer reads its all about whacky behavior with DirectX9  :/

 

Apart from that, here a new build https://github.com/v...runs/1512137120

with flipped modes (e.g. cyan/red instead of red/cyan), the desaturation option, and a contrast option.

 

Hmm, i wonder how other apps pull it off then?

Of course, i am only assuming BAM uses DX9, perhaps it does not?

Shame that changing the renderer to DX11 (Cause win7 does not have DX12), or OpenGL, or Vulkan is about as fun as pulling teeth from a fully conscious polar bear

 

Maybe i could look at how reshade does things? Cause there its using DX9 for DX9 apps AFAIR.. But i may be wrong..

 

Also: I screwed up contrast for the non-deghosting path, so i need to retweak that part..  :/

 

 

I wish i was better at coding (Read as I wish i had a bloody clue what the hell i am even doing)

cause i am no help at all.
I am guessing that reshade is able to tap into the alt depth buffer as it works in VPX with it enabled
and the 3D depth is good, but aside from a decent increase in CPU load, it also is kind of generic.
It does VPX knows what it is drawing reshade does not exactly, the inbuilt anaglyph you put in VPX gives a nicer sharper image
reshade to me is fuzzy.

 

Right now, i just ignore the pinking shear edges that disabling alt depth buffer does, because aside from that, it looks super good, and i used your desaturator in reverse
to amp up the colors, it does not make the colors correct (It is anaglyph, there is NO color correct regardless of glasses used because you are getting 3d by filtering out COLOR)

but it does make the colors stand out more.
I used like -7 desaturation

 

And yes, Reshade is using DX9

[dan_shane]

 

 

Apart from that, here a new build https://github.com/v...runs/1512137120

with flipped modes (e.g. cyan/red instead of red/cyan), the desaturation option, and a contrast option.

 

Thanks for this, Toxie.  I'm absolutely loving anaglyph 3-D on VPX.

[toxie]

I am guessing that reshade is able to tap into the alt depth buffer as it works in VPX with it enabled

and the 3D depth is good, but aside from a decent increase in CPU load, it also is kind of generic.
It does VPX knows what it is drawing reshade does not exactly, the inbuilt anaglyph you put in VPX gives a nicer sharper image
reshade to me is fuzzy.

 

Right now, i just ignore the pinking shear edges that disabling alt depth buffer does, because aside from that, it looks super good, and i used your desaturator in reverse
to amp up the colors, it does not make the colors correct (It is anaglyph, there is NO color correct regardless of glasses used because you are getting 3d by filtering out COLOR)

but it does make the colors stand out more.
I used like -7 desaturation

 

Cheater..    But yes, its fine to do so, of course..

 

Could you please post a screenshot of the broken image? And if you have alt depth enabled it fails to start, or what does happen then?

 

I also contacted Patrick from reshade and he pointed me to the DX9 depth copying code.. Maybe i can port that over.. It definetly handles maaaaany more special cases than mine (and thus is slower, too, i guess, lets see)..

[wiesshund]

 

I am guessing that reshade is able to tap into the alt depth buffer as it works in VPX with it enabled

and the 3D depth is good, but aside from a decent increase in CPU load, it also is kind of generic.
It does VPX knows what it is drawing reshade does not exactly, the inbuilt anaglyph you put in VPX gives a nicer sharper image
reshade to me is fuzzy.

 

Right now, i just ignore the pinking shear edges that disabling alt depth buffer does, because aside from that, it looks super good, and i used your desaturator in reverse
to amp up the colors, it does not make the colors correct (It is anaglyph, there is NO color correct regardless of glasses used because you are getting 3d by filtering out COLOR)

but it does make the colors stand out more.
I used like -7 desaturation

 

Cheater..    But yes, its fine to do so, of course..

 

Could you please post a screenshot of the broken image? And if you have alt depth enabled it fails to start, or what does happen then?

 

I also contacted Patrick from reshade and he pointed me to the DX9 depth copying code.. Maybe i can port that over.. It definetly handles maaaaany more special cases than mine (and thus is slower, too, i guess, lets see)..

 

 

If i have alt depth buffer enabled, all that happens is nothing
Table launches and plays normally as if you have not picked 3d anaglyph.

 

I will get you a screen shot

 

Not everything it abominated with alt depth buffer off
but like for example the plastics over the slingshots in heavy metal look like someone cut them out with a pair of pinking shears
Some tables more so than others, not sure what instigates varience.

 

There are other anomalies of that are lesser pronounced.
I will see if i cant get to my desktop some time tonight if i can and get you a with and without screen shot.

 

Wonder if you can just pick the cases necessary, maybe you dont have to include everything?

[toxie]

Yes, i have some feeling what i could do, and could offer that as an alt depth mode 2 maybe.. 

[wiesshund]

Yes, i have some feeling what i could do, and could offer that as an alt depth mode 2 maybe.. 

 

That will never do

 

Need a darker and more foreboding name than alt depth mode 2.

 

How about
Dimensional Translocator?

 

Or Realm of the Netherpixels?

 

Or how about simply

Götterdämmerung

 

seems totally self explanatory yes?

[ludovids]

My screen protectors and red/cyan clipons arrived. I started trying them out last night and here are the results:

 

Screen protectors over active 3D shutter glasses, using 3D Top/Bottom mode and "Use Y-Axis" checked, other 3D settings left at default values:

• The ghosting is much improved compared to using the RealD 3D lenses. But it's still pretty distracting and turning on vsync did not help. What's left of it I attribute to residual pixel glow or polarization leakage, since I see it even when using the glasses in landscape mode without the screen protectors.
• I am seeing lots of rainbowing and other artifacts when using the screen protectors, especially at the bottom of the glasses. I think this is mostly due to having the screen protectors attached to the frames of the glasses, rather than directly on the lenses. So I will see if I can figure out a good way to apply the screen protectors directly to the lenses.
• Using the shutter glasses in portrait mode is not ideal, because they are very short top to bottom. That's ok in landscape mode, but in portrait mode it forces you to move you head up and down quite a bit more than normal. I have not actually tried to play a pinball table this way yet, but expect it will make taking my eye off the ball even more dangerous.
• The 3D effect is excellent, but the overall image is somewhat confusing, due to the ghosting, and because some table elements are split between more than 1 level when they should be on the same level visually. I will have to test a table that's meant to be viewed in 3D.

Red/cyan clipons:

 

In general:

• 3D effect is good, but not as good as with shutter glasses.
• Turning off table property "Reflect Elements on Playfield" helps to reduce visual confusion.
• The reds really suffer, as to be expected. May be better to use a different color scheme with tables that have lots of red.

Using JP's Lord of the Rings table and Anaglyph Red/Cyan setting, with and without Deghosted:

• Ghosting is minimal.

•  I found the overall image to be very confusing to look at. Seems like my eyes were rapidly shifting which one was dominant. Less confusing when Deghosted, and maybe a bit darker.

   

Using JP's Lord of the Rings table and Anaglyph Dubois Red/Cyan setting:

• Ghosting about the same as with shutter glasses.
• Overall image was much less confusing than with other 2 anaglyph settings.
• This looks to me to be the best red/cyan anaglyph setting for this table.

 Will post more results after I apply the screen protectors directly to the lenses of the active glasses.

Edited by ludovids, 03 December 2021 - 01:50 PM.

[dan_shane]

 

Using JP's Lord of the Rings table and Anaglyph Dubois Red/Cyan setting:

• Ghosting about the same as with shutter glasses.
• Overall image was much less confusing than with other 2 anaglyph settings.
• This looks to me to be the best red/cyan anaglyph setting for this table.

 

I find the Dubois anaglyph to work the best on most of the tables I have tried so far.  The ColorCode version is more pleasing spectrum-wise, but it's simply too dark on my ALP.  Increasing the brightness enough to compensate tends to cause blooming. 

 

If LG produced a 32" passive panel I would buy it in a heartbeat, but for now I'll just enjoy the blue and yellow depth. The F10 switch-off feature is very handy when playing with others who prefer the full color over the 3D -- we can quickly change views between turns.

[Gravy]

My screen protectors and red/cyan clipons arrived. I started trying them out last night and here are the results:

 

 

That's a good write up, the fact that your screen has the active 3D ghosting issue even in landscape mode without the screen protectors at least means its not a fault of the screen protector method and perhaps more related to persistance of image whereby each frame bleeds into the next a little. I wonder if this may be related to any postprocessing features you may have turned on for your TV? Disable any features of your TV like motion smoothing, image smoothing etc and see if that helps (ie, make sure TV is running in game mode).

Regarding the rainbow effects, do you still have the protection layers on your screen protector (screen protector protectors for want of a better description, hahaha)? I think this may have something to do with rainbowing if there are multiple layers. It may help once you remove those layers and apply directly to the glasses lenses.


 

[toxie]

Turning off table property "Reflect Elements on Playfield" helps to reduce visual confusion.
 

 

Very good point!! As for this effect there is no depth available and thus the fake stereo3D will suffer!
 

[ludovids]

@Gravy: Yeah, I have the TV settings optimized and have removed the protection layers from the screen protectors.