318 replies to this topic

[rothbauerw]

@Thalamus

 

If others try that setting and it seems to be better, I'd be ok with that adjustment.  It's value to overall play is minimal.  It's primarily there to help better simulate tap pass capabilities.  I have a feeling the timer is not running fast enough to change the coil-ramp up when it's suppose to.  It's something I can revisit as we look to build some of this stuff into the physics engine.  This may be one of those trade-off that currently "not worth it".

 

@JLouLoulou

 

I would still like you to test this change and see if it helps what you're experiencing. 

[ClarkKent]

 

I think you should simply add a switch at the beginning of the script to enable or disable the physics tweaking. I think a lot of script tweaking  doesn’t make the physics more realistic but only different - some people like it very much others not that much. The switch would make both happy...

 

I'll make a deal with you.  I'll add an option to turn off my physics when you add an option to turn on nfozzy physics on your tables.  You first!

 

Can't do that, I'm no table author. I'm mostly providing resources from my huge collection, also working on many scans to perfect them. Even the playfield you are using in your table seems to be from my collection - just checked, it is from my collection (I have a full high res scan in 600 dpi in original size).

Edited by ClarkKent, 09 April 2020 - 06:44 PM.

[Kemoauc]

Not sure know how the authors perceive the discussion now following the release of TOM 2.0 about lag, preferred behavior, how it feels compared to the real thing, etc.

But i would say that this just states on what an exceptional high level their work really is. So i would try to take this as a compliment of the users here and think of it as positive feedback!

[Ben Logan]

 

 

I think you should simply add a switch at the beginning of the script to enable or disable the physics tweaking. I think a lot of script tweaking  doesn’t make the physics more realistic but only different - some people like it very much others not that much. The switch would make both happy...

 

I'll make a deal with you.  I'll add an option to turn off my physics when you add an option to turn on nfozzy physics on your tables.  You first!

 

Can't do that, I'm no table author. I'm mostly providing resources from my huge collection, also working on many scans to perfect them. Even the playfield you are using in your table seems to be from my collection - just checked, it is from my collection (I have a full high res scan in 600 dpi in original size).

 

 

 

Clark,

 

Thanks so much for all the beautiful high-res resources you've provided over the years. Our local brewery, Sierra Nevada, has a new slogan: "Family owned, operated and argued over since 1977."

 

VP is the same way, imo. We VPX guys debate passionately about pinball stuff, because we all love this hobby.

 

 

(Almost as much as we love beer...)

[Rawd]

I wonder if because of monitor lag, a flipper without coil ramp up feels more like a real flipper to some because it ends up "compensating" for the monitor lag.

 

Finally, perceived lag is such a personal thing.  At the last Ottawa Pinball and Gameroom show, there was a guy who brought his pincab and he said "no lag".  Jeesus, was there ever a lot of lag. To each is own, maybe some of us are more prone to noticing this, I dunno.

I have had this exact same experience at a pinball show.  I thought the cabinet was an embarrassment for VP    The owner said there was no lag.  It was pretty much unplayable.  Of course I didn't say anything, but I wanted to let people know that there is a better experience out there.

 

I really think the TV may be a big factor here.

Edited by Rawd, 09 April 2020 - 07:25 PM.

[JLouLoulou]

@Thalamus

 

If others try that setting and it seems to be better, I'd be ok with that adjustment.  It's value to overall play is minimal.  It's primarily there to help better simulate tap pass capabilities.  I have a feeling the timer is not running fast enough to change the coil-ramp up when it's suppose to.  It's something I can revisit as we look to build some of this stuff into the physics engine.  This may be one of those trade-off that currently "not worth it".

 

@JLouLoulou

 

I would still like you to test this change and see if it helps what you're experiencing. 

@Rothbauerw

 

Yep i test with  2.5 value.. it's a litlle better... but not as it coul'd be. I say that because i possibly find somthing. I make 4 test:

 

- First test: I disable vsync, and without, i'm at ~130fps... And whoaaaaa! the game is completely different! it work like it suppose to.. It's fast, it's very reactive, and i can say it's more difficult to make tips pass for example. In this situation i'm totaly satisfied. For the exemple of slinghsot corridor, if the ball roll fast to the flipper bats, i don't miss her as often as before and don't have extra wide angle. Accuracy is good etc etc. But in this situation, the ball have lot of stutter due to have 130fps on 60hz screen. it's horrible for my eyes

 

-Second test: enable frame limiter in vpx at 60fps...; uuuurkk... all the bad thiings of all worlds.. .Frame limiter not work great. It often around 90fps instead of 60fps.. VPX won't stay at 60fps. Flipper bats are "laggy", all stuturing, So;;; nothing work well

 

-Third test: Enable frame limiter in Nvidia with Nvidia inspector... it's better than VPX limiter, but stuttering too, a little less... "Laggy" flipper bats, little less so.

 

-Fourth test: Vsync enable in VPX with the new value 2.5. It's better tahn the default setup, but it's far from the free vsync test.. I have somme missed with the ball.. and i see the flipper bats not reactive at the moment when i push button, it's not like it could be.

 

The question is.. Why on a powerless PC, without vsync, at max 50/60 fps it work better my powerfull cab or desktop with vsync.. Like if VPX don't like to be limited and something gone wrong.. Like if some things not work at the same speed with the vsync. I don't know how to explain with my work.

 

Could there be a link with the timer?

 

So i will make a test with adaptative sync, but by the past, i have never good result with...

Edited by JLouLoulou, 09 April 2020 - 07:43 PM.

[rothbauerw]

Can't do that, I'm no table author. I'm mostly providing resources from my huge collection, also working on many scans to perfect them. Even the playfield you are using in your table seems to be from my collection - just checked, it is from my collection (I have a full high res scan in 600 dpi in original size).

 

 

 

Except that you're listed as the co-author on at least three tables (WCS, CV, STTNG)  and the go to guy for any physics related problems.  

 

You also have resources in your repository that I provided to you, so get off your high horse.

@Rothbauerw

 

Yep i test with  2.5 value.. it's a litlle better... but not as it coul'd be. I say that because i possibly find somthing. I make 4 test:

 

- First test: I disable vsync, and without, i'm at ~130fps... And whoaaaaa! the game is completely different! it work like it suppose to.. It's fast, it's very reactive, and i can say it's more difficult to make tips pass for example. In this situation i'm totaly satisfied. For the exemple of slinghsot corridor, if the ball roll fast to the flipper bats, i don't miss her as often as before and don't have extra wide angle. Accuracy is good etc etc. But in this situation, the ball have lot of stutter due to have 130fps on 60hz screen. it's horrible for my eyes

 

-Second test: enable frame limiter in vpx at 60fps...; uuuurkk... all the bad thiings of all worlds.. .Frame limiter not work great. It often around 90fps instead of 60fps.. VPX won't stay at 60fps. Flipper bats are "laggy", all stuturing, So;;; nothing work well

 

-Third test: Enable frame limiter in Nvidia with Nvidia inspector... it's better than VPX limiter, but stuttering too, a little less... "Laggy" flipper bats, little less so.

 

-Fourth test: Vsync enable in VPX with the new value 2.5. It's better tahn the default setup, but it's far from the free vsync test.. I have somme missed with the ball.. and i see the flipper bats not reactive at the moment when i push button, it's not like it could be.

 

The question is.. Why on a powerless PC, without vsync, at max 50/60 fps it work better my powerfull cab or desktop with vsync.. Like if VPX don't like to be limited and something gone wrong.. Like if some things not work at the same speed with the vsync. I don't know how to explain with my work.

 

Could there be a link with the timer?

 

So i will make a test with adaptative sync, but by the past, i have never good result with...

 

Thank you!  If you changed the value to 2.5, the script is no longer a factor in the lag you're experiencing.  You'd experience the same lag with standard VPX flippers.  

 

As it's been explained to me, the VPX engine will only accept input once for each frame update.  For a 60Hz monitor, that could be up do a 17ms delay from button press to flipper reacting.  At 130Hz, you're cutting that number more than in half.

 

The bad news is I can't fix that.  The good news is the development team hopes to solve that with the new Unity engine.

 

Best thing I can do for now is minimize the impact of the coil ramp-up and reduce the start of stroke value from 8.5 to 2.5 which I will do in the next release.

[The Loafer]

 

@Thalamus

 

If others try that setting and it seems to be better, I'd be ok with that adjustment.  It's value to overall play is minimal.  It's primarily there to help better simulate tap pass capabilities.  I have a feeling the timer is not running fast enough to change the coil-ramp up when it's suppose to.  It's something I can revisit as we look to build some of this stuff into the physics engine.  This may be one of those trade-off that currently "not worth it".

 

@JLouLoulou

 

I would still like you to test this change and see if it helps what you're experiencing. 

@Rothbauerw

 

Yep i test with  2.5 value.. it's a litlle better... but not as it coul'd be. I say that because i possibly find somthing. I make 4 test:

 

- First test: I disable vsync, and without, i'm at ~130fps... And whoaaaaa! the game is completely different! it work like it suppose to.. It's fast, it's very reactive, and i can say it's more difficult to make tips pass for example. In this situation i'm totaly satisfied. For the exemple of slinghsot corridor, if the ball roll fast to the flipper bats, i don't miss her as often as before and don't have extra wide angle. Accuracy is good etc etc. But in this situation, the ball have lot of stutter due to have 130fps on 60hz screen. it's horrible for my eyes

 

-Second test: enable frame limiter in vpx at 60fps...; uuuurkk... all the bad thiings of all worlds.. .Frame limiter not work great. It often around 90fps instead of 60fps.. VPX won't stay at 60fps. Flipper bats are "laggy", all stuturing, So;;; nothing work well

 

-Third test: Enable frame limiter in Nvidia with Nvidia inspector... it's better than VPX limiter, but stuttering too, a little less... "Laggy" flipper bats, little less so.

 

-Fourth test: Vsync enable in VPX with the new value 2.5. It's better tahn the default setup, but it's far from the free vsync test.. I have somme missed with the ball.. and i see the flipper bats not reactive at the moment when i push button, it's not like it could be.

 

The question is.. Why on a powerless PC, without vsync, at max 50/60 fps it work better my powerfull cab or desktop with vsync.. Like if VPX don't like to be limited and something gone wrong.. Like if some things not work at the same speed with the vsync. I don't know how to explain with my work.

 

Could there be a link with the timer?

 

So i will make a test with adaptative sync, but by the past, i have never good result with...

 

 

Informative post but it certainly seems to support either a VP issue or a configuration issue, rather than an issue with Roth's physics/script.  There is so much that could cause poor performance outside of VP.  What are your full powerful PC specs and would you mind posting a screenshot of your VP video preferences?  Are you running a 4K cab?  What is the make/model number of your playfield tv/monitor?  Are you running your TV/monitor in "PC MODE" (if it exists) or "Just Scan" if it exists or no configuration?  

 

Roth/Fleep: If you find this VP/physics subject stepping too far away from the TOM release (and thus sorta polluting the thread), we can create a separate thread to continue this subject separately.  I think all would understand.  I also think it's important to identify why some people have huge issues and some don't.  There is a mystery here but it's not a TOM mystery that's for sure.

 

JLouloulou: At worst, we can continue discussion via PM if you wish

[Thalamus]

@Rothbauwerw : So, I have a question for you. These tables all seems to have "rothfozzy"

 

Just for everyone convenience - if you like 2.5 - this is tables that has "rothfozzy" set at 8.5.

 

Austin Powers (Stern 2001).vbs
Cactus Jacks (Gottlieb 1991)v.95.vbs
Dungeons&Dragons (Bally 1987) v1.2.0.vbs
Genie (Gottlieb 1979).vbs
Kiss (Bally 1979).vbs
Lost World (Bally 1978).vbs
Medieval Madness Skitso mod 1.1.vbs
Mystery Castle (Alvin G 1993) - v1.0.1.vbs
Speakeasy (Playmatic 1977).vbs
Star Light (Williams 1984).vbs
Stellar Airship (Geiger 1979).vbs
Stingray (Stern 1977).vbs
Theatre of Magic (Bally 1995) 2.0.vbs
TOTAN4k 1.3.vbs
Truck Stop (Bally 1988) - V1.0.0.vbs
Twilight Zone Skitso mod 2.05.vbs

 

Star Light, plays for me like no other. And I don't understand why I get that feeling - do you ?

 

Update : of course we can mode this thread. Seems I posted almost at the same time as Loafer.

Edited by Thalamus, 09 April 2020 - 08:22 PM.

[Genesis38]

Here's a quick play video I made yesterday. I see no flipper lag on my machine. i7 4460k processor, GTx 980TI graphics card, 4k 49" Sony playfield.

I apologize for the terrible angle.

https://youtu.be/0a1P9mD1XnE

Edited by Genesis38, 09 April 2020 - 08:24 PM.

[JLouLoulou]

 

Can't do that, I'm no table author. I'm mostly providing resources from my huge collection, also working on many scans to perfect them. Even the playfield you are using in your table seems to be from my collection - just checked, it is from my collection (I have a full high res scan in 600 dpi in original size).

 

 

 

Except that you're listed as the co-author on at least three tables (WCS, CV, STTNG)  and the go to guy for any physics related problems.  

 

You also have resources in your repository that I provided to you, so get off your high horse.

@Rothbauerw

 

Yep i test with  2.5 value.. it's a litlle better... but not as it coul'd be. I say that because i possibly find somthing. I make 4 test:

 

- First test: I disable vsync, and without, i'm at ~130fps... And whoaaaaa! the game is completely different! it work like it suppose to.. It's fast, it's very reactive, and i can say it's more difficult to make tips pass for example. In this situation i'm totaly satisfied. For the exemple of slinghsot corridor, if the ball roll fast to the flipper bats, i don't miss her as often as before and don't have extra wide angle. Accuracy is good etc etc. But in this situation, the ball have lot of stutter due to have 130fps on 60hz screen. it's horrible for my eyes

 

-Second test: enable frame limiter in vpx at 60fps...; uuuurkk... all the bad thiings of all worlds.. .Frame limiter not work great. It often around 90fps instead of 60fps.. VPX won't stay at 60fps. Flipper bats are "laggy", all stuturing, So;;; nothing work well

 

-Third test: Enable frame limiter in Nvidia with Nvidia inspector... it's better than VPX limiter, but stuttering too, a little less... "Laggy" flipper bats, little less so.

 

-Fourth test: Vsync enable in VPX with the new value 2.5. It's better tahn the default setup, but it's far from the free vsync test.. I have somme missed with the ball.. and i see the flipper bats not reactive at the moment when i push button, it's not like it could be.

 

The question is.. Why on a powerless PC, without vsync, at max 50/60 fps it work better my powerfull cab or desktop with vsync.. Like if VPX don't like to be limited and something gone wrong.. Like if some things not work at the same speed with the vsync. I don't know how to explain with my work.

 

Could there be a link with the timer?

 

So i will make a test with adaptative sync, but by the past, i have never good result with...

 

Thank you!  If you changed the value to 2.5, the script is no longer a factor in the lag you're experiencing.  You'd experience the same lag with standard VPX flippers.  

 

As it's been explained to me, the VPX engine will only accept input once for each frame update.  For a 60Hz monitor, that could be up do a 17ms delay from button press to flipper reacting.  At 130Hz, you're cutting that number more than in half.

 

The bad news is I can't fix that.  The good news is the development team hopes to solve that with the new Unity engine.

 

Best thing I can do for now is minimize the impact of the coil ramp-up and reduce the start of stroke value from 8.5 to 2.5 which I will do in the next release.

 

@Rothbauerw:

 

Here we are! 

I was sure i'm not crazy lool

 

I make fifth test:

 

With "Fast sync" in nvidia control panel ( it calculate all frame but only send frame that are sync to sreen ) with default value 8.5 and vsync + pre render frame at 0 in vpx . An yes! its' near to perfect. It's near to play like without vsync. There are some missed ball when she roll on the end of flipper bats, but its nothing compare with standard vsync. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's negligible. I think with the value à 2.5 it will be the good compromise.

 

Here a video of what i can do easily with vsync: you can heard i push the button, but bats don't move..Without vsync it's harder to do.. It's possible, but harder.

https://youtu.be/rIVl1jBzQP4

 

@The Loafer :

 

Sure we can PM! But now i'll go to bed We can speak about that later. 

 

My config is I5-4460 with GTX 1660Ti and 8Go. All option enable in vpx except Space reflection. Vsync and pre render at 0. Resolution in 4K

All nvidia setting by default expect adaptiv sync for now

KL25 controller card

Windows 10 ltsc Arium

TV thomson ( french trademark, I think you can't find it in America ). All postprocessing disable. Mode Game active.

Here's a quick play video I made yesterday. I see no flipper lag on my machine. i7 4460k processor, GTx 980TI graphics card, 4k 49" Sony playfield.

I apologize for the terrible angle.

https://youtu.be/0a1P9mD1XnE

to see if you have flipper lag with a video, it need to be filmed with a perfect pixel angle, or at least, a camera without capture lag and fast frame, and also need to see your fingers. 

Edited by JLouLoulou, 12 April 2020 - 10:47 AM.

[The Loafer]

Vsync and prerender set as 0?  Oye.  I dunno how people can expect snappy flippers when the program and monitor are not in sync?  Maybe I'm the one misunderstanding how that works...  Also game mode is good but in my experience, PC MODE is better if your monitor supports it.  PC Mode is often only available on one HDMI port, check your manual.  Have a good dodo 

[JLouLoulou]

Vsync and prerender set as 0?  Oye.  I dunno how people can expect snappy flippers when the program and monitor are not in sync?  Maybe I'm the one misunderstanding how that works...  Also game mode is good but in my experience, PC MODE is better if your monitor supports it.  PC Mode is often only available on one HDMI port, check your manual.  Have a good dodo 

read a second time my post i say i used "Fast Sync" in Nvidia in controls panel... if you use value in control panel, you need to desable them in vpx

Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

Edited by JLouLoulou, 12 April 2020 - 10:48 AM.

[rothbauerw]

@Rothbauwerw : So, I have a question for you. These tables all seems to have "rothfozzy"

 

Just for everyone convenience - if you like 2.5 - this is tables that has "rothfozzy" set at 8.5.

 

Austin Powers (Stern 2001).vbs
Cactus Jacks (Gottlieb 1991)v.95.vbs
Dungeons&Dragons (Bally 1987) v1.2.0.vbs
Genie (Gottlieb 1979).vbs
Kiss (Bally 1979).vbs
Lost World (Bally 1978).vbs
Medieval Madness Skitso mod 1.1.vbs
Mystery Castle (Alvin G 1993) - v1.0.1.vbs
Speakeasy (Playmatic 1977).vbs
Star Light (Williams 1984).vbs
Stellar Airship (Geiger 1979).vbs
Stingray (Stern 1977).vbs
Theatre of Magic (Bally 1995) 2.0.vbs
TOTAN4k 1.3.vbs
Truck Stop (Bally 1988) - V1.0.0.vbs
Twilight Zone Skitso mod 2.05.vbs

 

Star Light, plays for me like no other. And I don't understand why I get that feeling - do you ?

 

Update : of course we can mode this thread. Seems I posted almost at the same time as Loafer.

 

I didn't realize all those table had the flipper code added to them!  Maybe on Star Light and some of the other tables of that era, the extra ramp up feels more natural.

 

I would definitely adjust TZ, TOTAN, MM, and Cactus Jack's if you like the feeling of 2.5 over 8.5.  The others I would recommend trying with and without the change to see what feels better for those tables.

[Thalamus]

Thanks. That's what I thought.

[The Loafer]

 

Vsync and prerender set as 0?  Oye.  I dunno how people can expect snappy flippers when the program and monitor are not in sync?  Maybe I'm the one misunderstanding how that works...  Also game mode is good but in my experience, PC MODE is better if your monitor supports it.  PC Mode is often only available on one HDMI port, check your manual.  Have a good dodo 

read a second time my post i say i used adaptiv sync in Nvidia in controls panel... if you use value in control panel, you need to desable them in vpx

Envoyé de mon Redmi Pro en utilisant Tapatalk

 

 

Are you certain doing it in nvidia is equitable than setting it in VP?  I don't remember, didn't think BOTH settings were adjustable in nvidia control panel

[vargaso1979]

Modo latencia en ultra en el panel de Nvidia también ayuda a que haya menos retraso con el Vsync en on.normalmnete también a tuvo el triple buffer y modo de. Energia max rendiemiento
Yo no experimento nada raro en la mesa. Tengo una mesa a la que juego mucho real attack from Mars y la latencia se nota en vpx pero es un mal me or al que hay que acostumbrarse.Tambien hay algunas mesas que van los flipers mas rapido que en otras
Si la pantalla es 60hz y no habilitas el Vsync tendras siempre tartamudeo... Lo suyo es una pantalla 120hz..
Yo sienpre el Vsync dejo que trabaje Nvidia y en visual Vsync en 0

[Thalamus]

Google translated the above :

 

Ultra latency mode on the Nvidia panel also helps to have less lag with the Vsync on.Normally also it had triple buffer and mode. Max performance energy
I do not experience anything unusual at the table. I have a table that I play a lot of real attack from Mars and the latency is noticeable in vpx but it is a bad thing to hear to get used to. There are also some tables that flipers go faster than others
If the screen is 60hz and you don't enable Vsync, you will always stutter ... Yours is a 120hz screen.
I always use Vsync I let Nvidia work and in visual Vsync 0

[ludovids]

Modo latencia en ultra en el panel de Nvidia también ayuda a que haya menos retraso con el Vsync en on.normalmnete también a tuvo el triple buffer y modo de. Energia max rendiemiento
Yo no experimento nada raro en la mesa. Tengo una mesa a la que juego mucho real attack from Mars y la latencia se nota en vpx pero es un mal me or al que hay que acostumbrarse.Tambien hay algunas mesas que van los flipers mas rapido que en otras
Si la pantalla es 60hz y no habilitas el Vsync tendras siempre tartamudeo... Lo suyo es una pantalla 120hz..
Yo sienpre el Vsync dejo que trabaje Nvidia y en visual Vsync en 0

 

I do not use Vsync, and with my 60 Hz 4K playfield TV never get stutter. I would rather get the latest visual data available from the graphics card, thereby minimizing lag, even if it causes image tearing. I do not think tearing creates much of a problem with VP.

Edited by ludovids, 09 April 2020 - 10:15 PM.

[ludovids]

@JLouLoulou: Your I5-4460 may be too slow for 4K and a demanding table. Looks like that runs at max 3.4 GHz. I have seen tables stutter at 4.5 GHz, but run with no stutter at 5.0 GHz. So processor speed can definitely make a difference.