146 replies to this topic

[TedB]

I see the same problem:
If the unity thingy from luizou or my VPP will ever work, then game companies like farsight might see the problem, that the two markets will overlap more than at the moment - what would be a loss of money for the game companies - because of a group of people, releasing pinball tables that are not playable without a in 99.9% unlicensed rom - and with btw. unlicensed artwork on the tables.

The question is: will the markets really overlap? I don't think so. Most people who buy PA will not even know Visual Pinball. And more people don't know how to download, install and set up.
Hey, it's a console game (beside the Mac Version and a possible PC-Version on steam).

That was exactly my point. As long as companies are not interested in recreations of pinball tables then VP is pretty safe. Now there is actually increasing interest from a commercial party there is a higher risk that someone will take action.
I don't expect Farsight btw.. my guess is they know where the real pinball addicts are and a lot of financial support for their products will come from this forum. You don't bite the hand that feeds you and indeed they release it on different platforms so their product doesn't overlap 100%. From what I have heard more than ones, they are a nice bunch of guys so lets give them the benifit of the doubt and I wish them luck.

There is always a future for pinball originals, whatever happens and what I have on my cab already is pretty amazing. I am also very interested in the work from Louizou (didn't know about VPP, will forum search later). Originals could be as good as real pinball recreations. I have seen some fantastic FP tables that will be stunning with improved (unity) physics.
These new developments are the innovations that not only preserve pinball, but can even improve it.

Looking forward to those new developments and I am indeed a bit worried what happens if pinball recreation increases in popularity.

Future will tell

[superballs]

If you cant support a great new pinball game, your not really a true pinball fan... your just a VP or FP fan only.

I would never donate them money just to see an over-rated Twilight Zone. Then to have to pay them money a second time when the table is actually released. Thats cool though, I'm not a real pinball fan

plenty of pins out there without commercial themes that i'd rather see.

Just to clarify,

Donate 10$ - Get a copy for the platform of your choice.
This is a pre-order and not a donation.

If you don't like Twilight Zone then don't give anything. Maybe it will sell at 5$ with another table, maybe it will be 10$ on it's own. There's no risk, you either get your money back or you get Twilight Zone for the platform of your choice. I'm an XBOX and iPhone user so I'll be getting my copy for iPhone since good ol MS won't allow DLC tokens.

I support this site every year, despite that I never go over the free memberships 5 table limit.
I supported the Unity3D project.
I will be supporting the KickStarter.

The reason that the Unity 3D project took so long to raise funds for was that the word didn't get out that fast and it was done using donations to a paypal account. A well publicized kickstarter campaign might have done a bit better.

Seriously, I'm not against anyone not supporting the TZ table. I really don't care about the table myself since I've never played it. But without TPA I would have never played Black Hole and RBION ever. Or Circus Voltaire, or Bride of Pinbot (maybe if VP in all it's glory could you know, kinda fully support both major video card manufacturers, I could play the original Pinbot).

The people at Farsight have made it a full time job to recreate pinball tables. In doing this, they need to be able to pay their rent/mortgage, car insurance, food, child expenses, and all the same life stuff that we have. I don't see anyone here (with all due respect to the devs and authors) making it a full time job to improve VP. I also don't see anyone that complains about having to pay for software going to work and telling their bosses or clients that they don't have to pay them for their work.

Also, in regards to how shameful it is to buy the rights to something and exploit them, is it any less shameful to sell the rights to someone when it's clear they aren't buying the rights thinking that the IP is worth nothing? A sale is a two way street and you can't hold only one party responsible for that.

I recognize some very good points here but after two years here, I've come to expect better.

[TheMcD]

Just to clarify,

Donate 10$ - Get a copy for the platform of your choice.
This is a pre-order and not a donation.

If you don't like Twilight Zone then don't give anything. Maybe it will sell at 5$ with another table, maybe it will be 10$ on it's own. There's no risk, you either get your money back or you get Twilight Zone for the platform of your choice. I'm an XBOX and iPhone user so I'll be getting my copy for iPhone since good ol MS won't allow DLC tokens.

I support this site every year, despite that I never go over the free memberships 5 table limit.
I supported the Unity3D project.
I will be supporting the KickStarter.

The reason that the Unity 3D project took so long to raise funds for was that the word didn't get out that fast and it was done using donations to a paypal account. A well publicized kickstarter campaign might have done a bit better.

Seriously, I'm not against anyone not supporting the TZ table. I really don't care about the table myself since I've never played it. But without TPA I would have never played Black Hole and RBION ever. Or Circus Voltaire, or Bride of Pinbot (maybe if VP in all it's glory could you know, kinda fully support both major video card manufacturers, I could play the original Pinbot).

The people at Farsight have made it a full time job to recreate pinball tables. In doing this, they need to be able to pay their rent/mortgage, car insurance, food, child expenses, and all the same life stuff that we have. I don't see anyone here (with all due respect to the devs and authors) making it a full time job to improve VP. I also don't see anyone that complains about having to pay for software going to work and telling their bosses or clients that they don't have to pay them for their work.

Also, in regards to how shameful it is to buy the rights to something and exploit them, is it any less shameful to sell the rights to someone when it's clear they aren't buying the rights thinking that the IP is worth nothing? A sale is a two way street and you can't hold only one party responsible for that.

I recognize some very good points here but after two years here, I've come to expect better.

A few things. One: Still on about VP not supporting ATI well? That problem has been axed LONG ago - the problem now lies within different things, mainly some antiquated Direct X code still hanging about in VP no longer being supported in Win7.

Two: What does Farsight making it a full time job have to do with anything? The way I see it, they want money for their product, henceforth they have to make their product appeal to me for me to give them money. Simple as that. I'm not giving them money without any frame of reference on how they handle the PC environment because I've been burned too many times. Also, if somebody were to make it their full time job to improve VP, they would have to rely purely on donations since VP is open source, which is flat-out out of the question for anybody, I assume. Apples and oranges.

Three: You mention tables you would not have played without TPA and cite them as a reason you contributed to the Kickstarter. Not quite sure what you're saying here - you're not supporting the product itself (being the Twilight Zone table) but rather the company via the product, while not having any major interest in the product itself? Why not ask the company itself how to donate to them directly? It would be a much more efficient solution. Just saying - I'm not really trying to make a real point here.

Four: You say that you would support TPA over VP if it were to come down to crunch time, the two-go-in-one-goes-out scenario, because of VP recreations being "illegal knockoffs". I find that to be almost insulting. For years, we've been working away at the preservation of pinball when nobody else was really working on it and during this time, we have garnered the toleration of most major pinball manufacturers. While one might say the law is absolute in that regard, I believe the manufacturers should have a say on what is allowed and what isn't, and they allow VP to recreate their creations.

One of the main reasons I feel so critical about these guys is because of the untested relationship between VP and TPA. If there was a clear statement about how the two are different things and can coexist, I might feel a bit better about it. Another thing is that they mentioned something in the FAQ - about ST:TNG. They said that the license costs would be "another 55K". I find this to be unbelievable. The idea that two completely different tables with different licensors somehow costs exactly the same is ridiculous. The third thing is like I mentioned the lack of PC credentials. These three add together to the point where I feel I'm one of the most critical members around here regarding these guys. So maybe it's just me being a backwards idiot who can't appreciate the true future of video pinball and hence is being overly critical of a perfectly upstanding company with absolutely no harm intended. But with the video game industry being more and more about pure profit, where companies don't give a damn about customer relations anymore and churn out DLC to nickel and dime their customers to death, I feel like an overly critical stance is simply being careful.

[Arcade4]

Wow. Reading this thread makes my head spin with all the crazy theories everybody has.
Quit worrying so much.
I talked many time to the Farsight people. They had no intentions of coming in here and trying to create the havoc that some people seem so worried about.
VP will be around for quite some time and pinball recreations just keep getting better and better on all fronts. How can that be bad?
And if Farsight gets their tables to run in my pinball cabinet along side all the rest, Then Yay!!!.
And I can't even began to fathom why people care how they get money for the licenses, just so long as they get it.

[The Loafer]

My biggest problem is the "hallelujah attitude" regarding this company. It is just a company trying to make money.
What guys like Destruk, cupid, Noah, JP and all the other VP authors are doing is preservation of pinball. They are doing it all for free, share the code and only they are imo entitled to say they help preservation of pinball.
I am amazed how much support this initiative gets while it took so long to raise money to support the Unity project. Something I would gladly donate money to is to hire a VP dev full time for a couple of months.

Can they co-exist? Usually when money can be made by companies and a similar not licenced product is in the market companies will start taking action. So yes, I think sponsoring this action (or even buying) Pinball Arcade is a negative vote for VP.

I love VP but if Farsight and TPA were to somehow fail because of VP than I would be 100% behind getting rid of all the tables on VP modeled after real tables. The authors have no right to produce these tables. The fact that the industry has turned a blind eye and continues to do so is fantatstic but if it came down to a matter of survival or a question as to the viability of a product due to illegal knockoffs than the unlicenced versions of have to go.

Well, you just lost me here. Sure, I get what you are saying and I HAVE Supported Farsight with my cash, but just because VP tables aren't licensed, doesn't mean they can't exist too! First of all, TPA won't fail because of "VP" or any free hobbiest pinball construction program. VP has been around for what, 10 years now? In that time there has been MANY commercial programs sold and quite a few of them have made money. If TPA dies, it's not because of VP, it's other factors that will come into play such as there own business costs, the devalue of gaming prices ("ohhh it aimed at the casual gamer; that means we can't sell our product for more than 10-15 bucks!", etc. It sure as hell won't be because of VP/FP/MOUSE.

[The Loafer]

Another thing is that they mentioned something in the FAQ - about ST:TNG. They said that the license costs would be "another 55K". I find this to be unbelievable. The idea that two completely different tables with different licensors somehow costs exactly the same is ridiculous.

Every actor on that backglass will need to approve the license and get their cut. Paramount will need to approve and get their cut. Williams will need their cut. Music used from the TV series, the owner of it will need to get their cut. I personally would not be surprised if it was more. Don't forget it's not just because of the licensing, it's all the different PLATFORMS TPA is being developped for which CAN (not certain, but could) equate to a larger upfront figure, if it's not on a "per unit sold cut" and if it's that, there would be a minimum amount to cover. IE: the licensees will not accept just a cut without a minimum as they won't want to just make $10 each if it ever sold only 100 copies.

The Majority of the funds related to the kickstarter are, as mentioned previously, just a big ol' pre-order and from the kickstarter page, we can deduce what these special tables will go for: $10 per table (the minimum kickstarter "donation"). So the question to ask is, would "I" (because for me, that's all that counts) pay $10 for a kickass version of Twilight Zone if it looked and played like what I've seen so far from TPA? Heck yeah! Would I pay that for STTNG? Heck yeah? Would I pay that for Star Wars? Hmmm maybe. How about Gilligan't Island? Frack no, not that good a table, at least not worth $10. But from everyone on that backglass and the different copyright owners, Gilligan's Island could very well be a $10 table.

... but I seriously think FarSight know people won't break down their doors demanding for a $10 Gilligan's Island, so I think the SS Minnow will just keep sailing on...

[TheMcD]

Every actor on that backglass will need to approve the license and get their cut. Paramount will need to approve and get their cut. Williams will need their cut. Music used from the TV series, the owner of it will need to get their cut. I personally would not be surprised if it was more. Don't forget it's not just because of the licensing, it's all the different PLATFORMS TPA is being developped for which CAN (not certain, but could) equate to a larger upfront figure, if it's not on a "per unit sold cut" and if it's that, there would be a minimum amount to cover. IE: the licensees will not accept just a cut without a minimum as they won't want to just make $10 each if it ever sold only 100 copies.

The Majority of the funds related to the kickstarter are, as mentioned previously, just a big ol' pre-order and from the kickstarter page, we can deduce what these special tables will go for: $10 per table (the minimum kickstarter "donation"). So the question to ask is, would "I" (because for me, that's all that counts) pay $10 for a kickass version of Twilight Zone if it looked and played like what I've seen so far from TPA? Heck yeah! Would I pay that for STTNG? Heck yeah? Would I pay that for Star Wars? Hmmm maybe. How about Gilligan't Island? Frack no, not that good a table, at least not worth $10. But from everyone on that backglass and the different copyright owners, Gilligan's Island could very well be a $10 table.

... but I seriously think FarSight know people won't break down their doors demanding for a $10 Gilligan's Island, so I think the SS Minnow will just keep sailing on...

I believe they said in the FAQ it was a combination of flat sum and per-sale royalties. I'm just saying that with all these factors, all these different actors that probably demand different sums, different companies etc. etc. I can't believe that they say it'll cost 55K for TZ and 55K for ST:TNG. There's got to be some sort of disparity there - you can't just describe licensing any table as 55K flat with all these factors.

[The Loafer]

I think you are getting hung up too much. What if it's 52K and 57K? 55K for high end licensing deals is at least a consistent target, which aside from the big backers is still consistent with one thing: these are pre-orders, nothing more! The flat sum and per-sale royalties makes sense in the industry, that's the "minimum amount" I mentioned earlier.

I hope no one misunderstands, this isn't for everyone and if its not for any of you, don't support it. I wasn't questioning that, just trying to prove that from a pov, there certainly is justification and more complexity in getting these licensing arrangements done for these tables and although the costs could be more or less, there's still a big cost there for them to swallow, which they can't.

Let's look at it in a business sense for a second. Some have questioned rightly why they did not just save up some cash, and fund this themselves. But as we can see from the licensing deals, these few tables will probably be selling for a lot more. So the scenario could have been that they make the deals, pay the money up front and then make Twilight zone and because of the expensive licensing, they have to sell it for $10 (and it could be more, it just dawned on me $10 is the price THEY need so it may sell for $14 to include the 30% that goes to the distributor!). So anyway, the result, they undersell by a large margin and in turn, realize that A) there is no market for a $10-$15 table and B) they are out $50 grand or so.

The Kickstarter allows them to leverage that by getting "guaranteed" sales, which is helpful for such a small developer. In effect, the kickstarter didn't just get them the funds to do the job and pay the licensees, its also educated them in informing them that yes, many of us want this.

[superballs]

A few things. One: Still on about VP not supporting ATI well? That problem has been axed LONG ago - the problem now lies within different things, mainly some antiquated Direct X code still hanging about in VP no longer being supported in Win7.

Two: What does Farsight making it a full time job have to do with anything? The way I see it, they want money for their product, henceforth they have to make their product appeal to me for me to give them money. Simple as that. I'm not giving them money without any frame of reference on how they handle the PC environment because I've been burned too many times. Also, if somebody were to make it their full time job to improve VP, they would have to rely purely on donations since VP is open source, which is flat-out out of the question for anybody, I assume. Apples and oranges.

Three: You mention tables you would not have played without TPA and cite them as a reason you contributed to the Kickstarter. Not quite sure what you're saying here - you're not supporting the product itself (being the Twilight Zone table) but rather the company via the product, while not having any major interest in the product itself? Why not ask the company itself how to donate to them directly? It would be a much more efficient solution. Just saying - I'm not really trying to make a real point here.

Four: You say that you would support TPA over VP if it were to come down to crunch time, the two-go-in-one-goes-out scenario, because of VP recreations being "illegal knockoffs". I find that to be almost insulting. For years, we've been working away at the preservation of pinball when nobody else was really working on it and during this time, we have garnered the toleration of most major pinball manufacturers. While one might say the law is absolute in that regard, I believe the manufacturers should have a say on what is allowed and what isn't, and they allow VP to recreate their creations.

One of the main reasons I feel so critical about these guys is because of the untested relationship between VP and TPA. If there was a clear statement about how the two are different things and can coexist, I might feel a bit better about it. Another thing is that they mentioned something in the FAQ - about ST:TNG. They said that the license costs would be "another 55K". I find this to be unbelievable. The idea that two completely different tables with different licensors somehow costs exactly the same is ridiculous. The third thing is like I mentioned the lack of PC credentials. These three add together to the point where I feel I'm one of the most critical members around here regarding these guys. So maybe it's just me being a backwards idiot who can't appreciate the true future of video pinball and hence is being overly critical of a perfectly upstanding company with absolutely no harm intended. But with the video game industry being more and more about pure profit, where companies don't give a damn about customer relations anymore and churn out DLC to nickel and dime their customers to death, I feel like an overly critical stance is simply being careful.

Point One: Ok fine but not sure what you mean by "Still on the issue", I really don't complain about too many issues, beyond a curiosity as to their cause. I'm usually content to spend time troubleshooting my issues. If that's not what you meant by that, forget I mentioned it.

Point Two: This was directed at those who seem angry about the concept of voluntarily pre-ordering a table or potentially not having it and acting like FS are some evil entity that loom over VP. Second, just because something is Open Source does not mean that they would need to run on donations. They could, in theory, sell copies of VP to anyone they want for whatever price they want and there's nothing anything can do to stop them, besides simply not buying it. All that is required is that the source code is made available or distributed with the software. That's how the GNU works, not free as in free beer but free as in freedom, blah blah blah. Of course, you and I can probably agree that only really dumb people would buy open source software, but then again, I'm sure we can both agree that the world is also full of those people. That being said, they want to make money, they are well within their rights to do so, and the only thing that dictates how they gain the capitol to pay licensing fees are laws and effectiveness. It looks like effectiveness is in their favour and they aren't breaking any laws or even, in my opinion acting in an objectionable manner. I was also referring to the "OMG Open source is god" crowd who seem to think that in the name of freedom, people shouldn't be free to open or close source their work. Those people expect things for free and in turn should work for free and maybe make it their full time job to make VP the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

Point Three: Just because I've never played a table doesn't mean I'm not interested in them. The reason I will support Kickstarter is that for the amount of money I've paid so far for TPA in total (25$ for 2 copies and all released tables and another 5 for the latest on the iOS that I haven't been able to buy yet), I've received hours upon hours of enjoyment from TPA and from my experience, Farsight has not disappointed me, since I'm not going to nitpick about minor bugs that I'm fairly sure will be fixed in a future update (admittedly I am kind of miffed about the gamebreaking Black Hole camera bug). I'm sure that they are going to probably take a little extra time to ensure that if we payed 10$ for a table as opposed to the usual 2.50$, that it will be pretty polished, and while I'm going to bring up bugs that i find if they haven't been brought up ad-nauseum, I'm not going to completely throw them under the bus for them either.

Point Four: I said no such thing, in fact, if you re-read my post you will see that I said the complete opposite. I intentionally remain a silver supporter here simply so that I will have a membership fee paid every year. If i cease to be a member for some reason then I've paid my per year fee, if I'm here for more than 6 years then I will have contributed more fees than a gold member, that's my sinister plan. I've also contributed to the Unity 3D project. In fact I have NOT yet contributed to the Kickstarter simply because I'm tight on funds right now but I'm hoping to very soon. If, like me you were addressing TedB (who I believe said something much to that affect) than ignore what I'm saying. I know I kinda did the same thing in my original post and poor Sabbat probably thought I was ranting at him the whole time (sorry bout that Sabbat).

Lastly, I just don't understand how you can feel critically about these guys for something that someone else said might happen. That to me seems akin to tin-foil hat conspiracy threory stuff to me. Don't get me wrong McD, I appreciate all the contributors here. You, Destruk, Noah, UW, JP, Bob, Groni, everyone. I really like this community and I have a great love for VP and all the things that it can do. My post was an expression of the frustration i felt having read EACH AND EVERY SINGLE POST in this thread an listening to so many crying foul over something so...god-dammit not foul.

As I also iterated in my post, it's not an obligation to support the program. If i give my 10$ and the table comes out in a pack of 2 for 5$ like every other update, then I'll simply be happy that i contributed to a project.

Lastly, I'm a Sega Dreamcast fan and an ardent lover of the Shenmue Series and 2K Hockey....you're not the only one to have been burned a few times..

Regards,

[TheMcD]

Seems I'm just going to keep being sceptical, because I can't see anything really convincing me otherwise - at this point in the gaming industry, every company is evil until proven otherwise IMO, and just because they proved otherwise doesn't mean they don't have the potential to turn into a completely different beast entirely like EA, Blizzard, Bioware et al. managed to do. But I'm not going to continue arguing either, because it's really just my opinion coming from a very specific mindset.

Just one thing. On point 4. You say you said the complete opposite of what I thought you said? Please explain to me how you do not see "if only one thing can survive, I would without a doubt kill VP to keep TPA alive" coming from "I love VP but if Farsight and TPA were to somehow fail because of VP than I would be 100% behind getting rid of all the tables on VP modeled after real tables. The authors have no right to produce these tables. The fact that the industry has turned a blind eye and continues to do so is fantatstic but if it came down to a matter of survival or a question as to the viability of a product due to illegal knockoffs than the unlicenced versions of have to go.", because I can't see how that quote somehow means the complete opposite.

[superballs]

Seems I'm just going to keep being sceptical, because I can't see anything really convincing me otherwise - at this point in the gaming industry, every company is evil until proven otherwise IMO, and just because they proved otherwise doesn't mean they don't have the potential to turn into a completely different beast entirely like EA, Blizzard, Bioware et al. managed to do. But I'm not going to continue arguing either, because it's really just my opinion coming from a very specific mindset.

Just one thing. On point 4. You say you said the complete opposite of what I thought you said? Please explain to me how you do not see "if only one thing can survive, I would without a doubt kill VP to keep TPA alive" coming from "I love VP but if Farsight and TPA were to somehow fail because of VP than I would be 100% behind getting rid of all the tables on VP modeled after real tables. The authors have no right to produce these tables. The fact that the industry has turned a blind eye and continues to do so is fantatstic but if it came down to a matter of survival or a question as to the viability of a product due to illegal knockoffs than the unlicenced versions of have to go.", because I can't see how that quote somehow means the complete opposite.

Yes, regarding point four. My name is not ND3G, I did not say what you are quoting anywhere in my post,it was ND3G, regarding supporting various pinball games my exact words were:

"I support this site every year, despite that I never go over the free memberships 5 table limit.
I supported the Unity3D project.
I will be supporting the KickStarter."

And nothing more, normally i like to think of myself as being quite pleasant, friendly and appreciative around these parts. I also think you're looking too far into this. If they make a profit then fine, in general we make profits every day selling our time to companies for money so they are no different than us, except that they've found a way to not incur great fiscal risk and find out if it is, in fact fiscally viable to release high profile licensed tables. I'm hoping if this flies that they will be less worried about ponying up the money themselves for highly requested tables. Even if they do do it through KickStart, it's not like they have Gamestop or another outlet on PSN or XBOX Live to take what are essentially pre-orders and really is a pretty innovative way to do it.

Honestly, I'm part of the camp that thinks that they should just do the awesome non, or less-licensed tables out there, and would prefer more of the better EM tables anyway.
I'm also not going to take part in the "if it doesn't support cabinets" or whatever else camp for the PC, I'll be grabbing that version too, that way, I'll still have it long after my XBOX invariably red-dots or whatever the new ones do. I just fear that a lot of the same people that cry foul about the whole Kickstarter thing are going to be the exact same people complaining if we don't get a pile of expensive licensed tables down the road.

EDIT:

One last thing. Your opinion doesn't really upset me McD, I'm glad we can have this discussion as such and I'm fine with the fact that we may or may never agree. The only thing that is really really getting to me is that I really don't want the quote from point four attributed for me for the same reason that it seems to upset you, and that it is in fact very insulting to VP and the people who put all the work into it. I'm really happy to see people so passionate about pinball and even VP but would hate to see a bunch of VP vs TPA arguments that polarize the community like the oft-repeated VP vs FP debacle. It just screams of divide and conquer to me.

Edited by superballs, 23 May 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[TheMcD]

Crud - goes to show how assumptions can screw you over. At a certain point, I started assuming that within any given thread, only one member will have a certain country/avatar combination (apart from guys from the USA, since those are just way too many), and we just so happened to get two Canadians with no avatar right after each other, and I didn't look at the name.

Honest mistake.

[superballs]

Crud - goes to show how assumptions can screw you over. At a certain point, I started assuming that within any given thread, only one member will have a certain country/avatar combination (apart from guys from the USA, since those are just way too many), and we just so happened to get two Canadians with no avatar right after each other, and I didn't look at the name.

Honest mistake.

No worries, I think we're on the same page more or less now at least

[ND3G]

The kickstarter just hit 70% but there is still a ways to go!

By the way, this is ND3G not superballs....

[coolin]

I'm defo in for at least $50 maybe $100 why?

Well for 1 It brought me back here after quite a layoff from the emu side with renewed interest after buying the app on my iPad and spending hours playing it. In fact I came to post a new thread to let you guys know of the Kickstarter project maybe help to pull in some funding for them. Should have known better you guys have it covered already with this thread however my 2 penneth if I may.

Ive been into pinballs longer then I care to remember and always found the community friendly and helpfull but after almost 1hr reading through this I was beginning to think I was in a different forum to the one I joined years ago! All it did was took my happily renewed interest and turned it into a low point in my day I'd rather forget. But as Rudy keeps reminding me "hey it's only pinball" and I shouldn't take it all too seriously I suppose.

My opinion of the iPad ver? "it's awesome" and that's all it is "my opinion" yep it has it's problems but TBH a lot less than I've had with some of the 30+ full size pins I've owned over the last 20 yrs lol. Thankfully farsight seems to address issues in regular updates and listen to the fans wish lists so I sincerely hope they make their target and more. TZ is one of my personal favourites and I own the original along with 2 other lawler masterpieces TAFG & FH (again my opinion)

To end on a positive note I just love how much VPinmame has evolved with the B2S tables and updates look awesome nice work guys so my next plan is to dust off my old setup and and maybe build a new cab for it all with a a nice 37 led playfield taking pride of place. Hopefully ill be more regular on here and I'll keep you guys informed of how I get on with the project.

That is if my 8mth old son lets me hehe.


Most memorable Video Pinball ever Alien Crash on the PCE followed by Devil Crush
Most memorable full size Pinball ever FH

[jrolson]

Now at 75%!

Also they picked up a TZ...



We found one in decent shape (increasingly rare these days) at a fair price so we decided to jump the gun a little and grab it.
Thanks to you we're now less than $15,000 away from the goal. Please help us get the rest of the way there! The sooner we can begin, the sooner this will be in your hands to play, and we're dying to get started!

[s1500]

..and it looks like a future table's going to be Dr. Dude. There goes that speculation. The table's right there!

[Dazz]

..and it looks like a future table's going to be Dr. Dude. There goes that speculation. The table's right there!

I wouldn't put any weight into what you see in their pictures as being future tables. From what I was told the owner of FarSight owns about 30 tables.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

if i was donating money to a company who will profit from my money, i expect shares in the profits this game will make.

like there wasnt 10, 000 other tables much better than TZ they could have picked and cost less. if the company was good enough they would make cheap licenced tables till they could afford a big licence fee, not ask the customers to foot the bill make them money

[lettuce]

if i was donating money to a company who will profit from my money, i expect shares in the profits this game will make.

like there wasnt 10, 000 other tables much better than TZ they could have picked and cost less. if the company was good enough they would make cheap licenced tables till they could afford a big licence fee, not ask the customers to foot the bill make them money

Well as said before you do get the table for free if you donate more than $10, so it's not as if you giving them your cash for nothing in return